Jacob Rupp sign

[OLUT]

Sirs, This sign looked like I have seen it before, and I did, it was at the Eagle museum sale in June 1984. My wife and I were there for the sale, I did not buy anything as we did not have much money then, I told my wife if it went cheap I would buy it went for $ 880.00, much to much for us. on page 113 in the auction book I bought back then it said it was 10 1/2 x 46 There is some copy on it that tells a lot about it. You can give me a call to learn more.  Bernie oldgunguy on our site 610-772-4655

Thanks to oldgunguy for jogging my feeble memory . I too remember seeing it, but couldn't remember where. ... and, as you said, there is a bit of text  in the Eagle Museum catalog. Apparently the date of 1817 was when Jacob Rupp inherited the house from his father.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Jacob was the son of Herman Rupp, and Herman didn't die until 1830-1831.  So whatever the date of 1817 signifies, it wasn't an inheritance from Jacob's father Herman.  Jacob's grandfather, the original immigrant Johan Georg (George), died in 1807, so he was already dead 10 years by 1817.  I am still a bit mystified as to what the date 1817 indicates.  If it was a deed transfer, it could be found in the deed book for Lehigh County that covered 1817.

[spgordon]

This image is included with the listing (as is the record from the Eagle Museum auction):



Not posting this to vouch for the information.

[OLUT]

Here's the Eagle Museum listing for the Rupp sign. The notation about 1817 is indeed similar to the posting that SPGORDON made of the  image from S E Dyke's letter  of 1968. Note that Vince Nolt who owned the museum made a special dedication to this "very best friend" Sam Dyke  in the catalog ...............   OLUT

[spgordon]

Thanks—and interesting to know that it sold for $800!

[OLUT]

Thanks—and interesting to know that it sold for $800!

$800 gavel price + 10% buyers premium + 6% Pa state tax ....... OLDGUNGUY has the final price stated correctly at $880

In 1984, I had two daughters about to be teens, so we were saving for their future college tuition. Consequently, I was outbid on all my interests except for one percussion pistol

[WESTbury]

This sign also appears on page 51 of Wilson's book, Steel Canvas, along with several Rupp rifles.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Interesting stuff.  I'd like to know more about the basis for Dyke's assertion that the home was "inherited" in 1817, because as I noted above, his father Herman was still living in 1817 and his grandfather George had died back in 1807.  So, did the house initially pass to someone else, perhaps uncle John or uncle George (Johann George Rupp named one son George also)?  It might help with info on John Sr the gunsmith (if it somehow had gone through his hands) because I'm still not clear on when or where he died.

I do have an indenture for a land title transfer for John Sr. and wife Margaret in 1802, although he is simply noted as "yeoman" at that point.  He sold a piece of land @ 40 acres (that apparently bordered property of Dewald Kuntz as well as Herman Rupp) that was originally deeded to him by his father George and mother Ursula in 1797 along with another piece of land, and he (John) is specifically noted as their son so it's the correct John Rupp.  I'm not clear, however, where this piece of land being sold or the other piece (deeded to John) may have been located in relation to the house under discussion here, although I currently assume that this was all tied up with the patriarch Johan Georg parceling out the "family farm" to his sons, so to speak.

If Jacob truly obtained title to the house in 1817, there must be something in one of the deed books but unfortunately Dyke did not reference the information here.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Not to be poking around in any super secret secrets, but is there a possibility that the lettering on this sign could represent something Masonic?  I am not a Mason so I don't know, but maybe someone here does.  Just a thought, continuing to think on this.

Also - as I have subsequently discovered, if in fact this was the original Rupp homestead (i.e. that of George Rupp Sr), he died with no will so the estate was not entirely settled until 1816.  His son Herman was responsible for the settlement and inventory etc, and I'm currently *assuming* that Herman was in control of the house/property until the settlement.  Given that 1817 was the following year, and that (1) Andrew was up in Weisenberg twp at this point, (2) George Jr was unaccounted for to the best of my knowledge with any certainty, (3) Johannes/John was dead, and (4) Herman was still there in Macungie, I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that Herman had been living in the house or on the large property, and once the estate was settled, he passed it on to his only son Jacob.  This is speculation. 

Meanwhile back to the Masonic thing:  From Roberts et al History of Lehigh County Pennsylvania, and thus unverified but perhaps a starting point:



"Jordan" was also the name of a church and congregation between Allentown and the Macungie area, just a few miles space as I understand it, so could it be possible that when the lodge charter was granted in 1817, Jacob Rupp was in possession of the home and it was being used as a Masonic lodge?  Again, I'm not a Mason so if this seems silly, please forgive me.  Just thinking out loud.

[120RIR]

Masonic ritual, symbols, etc., can vary significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from century to century but as a four-time (about to be fifth) lodge Master, and a Scottish Rite Mason, I can't think of anything Masonic that the apparent abbreviations in the sign might be associated with.  I am, however, speaking from the perspective of a 21st century California Freemason.  Perhaps some of our eastern states Brethren on this forum will have a different perspective.

[JTR]

Given that 1817 was the following year, and that (1) Andrew was up in Weisenberg twp at this point, (2) George Jr was unaccounted for to the best of my knowledge with any certainty, (3) Johannes/John was dead, and (4) Herman was still there in Macungie, I'm going to go out on a limb and believe that Herman had been living in the house.....

Thank you for posting this new info.
So, at this point, you're saying the auction description of the sign could be correct, mostly correct, at least in some degree. But not completely false.
John

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm just posting information and questioning of a theory which occurred to me.  I don't think anywhere in this thread did I indicate that the auction description was false, but I will reiterate that I don't believe Dyke's interpretation of the letters is accurate.  I don't have an alternative interpretation other than what I previously posted, which *to my mind* makes more sense, but it's all - including Dyke's interpretation - speculative.

I also have no idea if the sign dates to the actual year 1817 or was made/installed later as a commemorative.  As I noted earlier, I have seen it first-hand and it does look old.  More than that I can't say.

I need to check on something but I want to come back to Scott's map shortly; I believe that's the Ruppsville Rd. heading southeast off of what now is 22/78, correct?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Scott do you know the year of that map?  I think I have a copy of the same map, Upper Macungie so it's post-1832 which I'd suspect anyway given the style of the map.  It looks like a lot of the typical late 19th century maps of different PA counties and townships.

I see three Herman Rupp's down the Ruppsville Rd.  What I'd like to know is which one of those was the original George Rupp house?  I'm pretty certain Herman (gunsmith Herman) had it, then transferred it to his son Jacob during his lifetime, then at some point it went to another Herman.

It's funny that the Sunset Grill, which I believe at one point was the Ruppsville Hotel, has a silly story about lovers eloping which kind of mirrors the old tale of George Rupp and Ursula von Peterholtz.  And the place is of course right down that road so I suspect it's close to where the original house - that Dyke states was demolished in 1967 - was standing.  I'm wondering if the middle Herman Rupp on the map, with the dotted line over to the house on the right side of the road, was the original house? 

[Buck]

Eric,

Everyone seems to be stuck on the County - Municipality so on and so forth. What about services rendered? MA - Master Armor, DP - Domain Post office, and LC - Who knows. Masonic - I'd concur with the Right Worshipful Brother, doesn't pertain to anything I've seen in the Blue Lodge, York or Scottish Rites.

Buck

[spgordon]

Scott do you know the year of that map?  I think I have a copy of the same map, Upper Macungie so it's post-1832 which I'd suspect anyway given the style of the map. 

:

I'm pretty sure that was from the 1876 Lehigh County atlas:

http://www.historicmapworks.com/Atlas.php?cat=Maps&c=US&a=7036

Here's an 1865 one that has lots of Rupps in the same places:

https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3823l.la000767/?r=0.413,0.425,0.15,0.067,0

[spgordon]

Everyone seems to be stuck on the County - Municipality so on and so forth. What about services rendered? MA - Master Armor, DP - Domain Post office, and LC - Who knows.

I agree. If this is a sign that hung in the nineteenth century on some Rupp home/business, it makes no sense to put the location on it. You attach a location to a name (Rupp) on things that aren't at the location (business cards, objects that will travel away from a shop, etc.). Signs on homes wouldn't say "Lehigh County" or "Macungie Township."