Jacob Rupp sign

[rich pierce]

Cool sign. It will sell for what it’s worth to someone in the market and who knows it’s for sale. Whether or not it’s understandable, may not matter but is worth discussing- that is meaningful and often much is brought up that’s worth considering.

[spgordon]

Maybe the sign painter was roman-numeral challenged.

M = 1000
A = ??
D = 500
P = ??
L = 50
C = 100

[WESTbury]

What about a stagecoach depot. There was a stagecoach line in that general area in the early 1800's. Please see the attached link below.

https://www.mywatsontown.com/?page_id=1474

Kent

[Eric Kettenburg]

So how might those letters relate to a coach line? 

Could "Lc" be "light coach?"  I have come across that term in 19th century texts.

[spgordon]

… what about a stagecoach depot. There was a stagecoach line in that general area in the early 1800's. Please see the attached link below.
https://www.mywatsontown.com/?page_id=1474

I did see that—but Watsontown is not near where Rupp lived, is it? If there was a stagecoach depot near the Rupp home (I don’t know where it was!), I would think DP is more likely to mean “depot” than “Township.”

[spgordon]

I don't know much about it so take it with a grain of salt - but perhaps the sign was hanging under the edge of a porch roof or gable or something, somewhat protected?  Who knows.

To Eric's point:



photo url

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm thinking more and more "Macungie Depot Light coach."  I certainly buy into that more than "township."

Tax and/or census records may shed some initial light also.

[spgordon]

Apparently the Rupp home or farm--and the surviving village of Ruppsville (which I'd never heard of!)--was west of Allentown, just south of Route 22, between Route 78 (to the east) and Route 100 (to the west).

And it was at a crossroads:



Wouldn't surprise me if a stagecoach ran by there and if this sign, esp. given where it was placed on the building, marked it as a stagecoach depot.

FWIW, the sign seems authentic to me & I haven't written anything here to the contrary.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, there were enough of them there, with enough land, to constitute their own "district" into the late 19th century I believe - hence the "Rupp's Dist." on the map.  We had the same thing up here where I am, a couple of square miles of "Moon District" (lots of Moons) complete with nearby post office etc.  And also, oddly enough, a prominent crossroads (at the time).

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know much about it so take it with a grain of salt - but perhaps the sign was hanging under the edge of a porch roof or gable or something, somewhat protected?  Who knows.

To Eric's point:



photo url

So, I am to believe this sign existed in this spot for 150 years in it's current condition?  I don't think so. I can't get paint to stick to my barn in an area like that for even 15 years. There's some hocus pocus going on here. But In the end, this doesn't change my life one way or another, I got bigger fish to fry.

[Dan Fruth]

Paint, like boiled linseed oil, had lead dryers in the composition. I'm sure there are plenty of old signs that have stood the test of time.
http://folkartcooperstown.blogspot.com/2010/08/taverns-signs-when-good-enough-is.html

[smart dog]

Hi,
There is a railway in that old map and I wonder if the sign was put up to indicate Macungie Depot, Lehigh County to direct railroad or coach passengers. Perhaps the 1817 was not when the sign was posted but indicates the date the building was erected.  Ruppsville Road, which is still there, is next to where many of us stayed during Dixon's.  There is a restaurant called the Sunset Grill that was once the Ruppsville Hotel constructed in the mid 1800s as a tavern and coach stop. 

dave

[Woodland]

I have nothing of merit to add, but I do own a few businesses and have never put a date on any of the signs.  I have, however seen lots of signs added to a building with the build year as a historical marker.  It would seen strange to me to have a date on a business sign.  Also the lack of any business description seems suspect.  You would think it would say "gunmaker", or "gunsmith" if it were a legitimate business shingle.  My guess would be that sign was added somewhat later as a historical marker.  That would not detract from how cool it is in my mind.

Jon

[Eric Kettenburg]

I have nothing of merit to add, but I do own a few businesses and have never put a date on any of the signs.  I have, however seen lots of signs added to a building with the build year as a historical marker.  It would seen strange to me to have a date on a business sign.  Also the lack of any business description seems suspect.  You would think it would say "gunmaker", or "gunsmith" if it were a legitimate business shingle.  My guess would be that sign was added somewhat later as a historical marker.  That would not detract from how cool it is in my mind.

Jon

I'd agree with that as well.  I certainly don't think it dates to 1817.  I believe Jacob Rupp died in the mid 1850s, so possibly the sign was put up either late in his life or at some point after he died as perhaps a memorial.  *IF* that were the case, the letters may not mean anything that we think they do but maybe something completely different, possibly something family-related.

[Shreckmeister]

We’ll I still think it’s fantasy to believe this sign was erected in 1817.  I’ve examined thousands of artifacts and “I” don’t think it’s 200 years old with 150 of them outdoors. IMHO. 

[spgordon]

I have nothing of merit to add, but I do own a few businesses and have never put a date on any of the signs.  I have, however seen lots of signs added to a building with the build year as a historical marker.  It would seen strange to me to have a date on a business sign.  Also the lack of any business description seems suspect.  You would think it would say "gunmaker", or "gunsmith" if it were a legitimate business shingle.  My guess would be that sign was added somewhat later as a historical marker.  That would not detract from how cool it is in my mind.

I appreciate this thoughtful response. It would have been very odd to put a date on a business sign. I suppose we see signs now that say "est. 1925" or whatever but that wasn't a practice during Rupp's time.

One does sometimes see dates on stone German homes from this period, often near the top: I think they are called "datestones" (?), often have the initials of the owners, and they are placed among the structural stones high up on a house. (Not on business signs, that is, but set in the structure itself.) They're set high up on the structure, about where the photos from the 1960s show this sign being.

My current guess, though, is that somebody added this sign when it became a "depot" stop--for a stagecoach or a railroad--and included the "1817" to commemorate when the home was enlarged and the family member who enlarged it. So I think it was up there for a long while, though probably not since 1817.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Sounds very reasonable and well-reasoned.

[Ky-Flinter]

This thread previously contained replies that violated ALR rules, mainly rule # 3.  "Any personal attack or personal criticism of another member of the message board.  You can criticize an idea but not a person. There will be zero tolerance for this infraction."

Those replies detracted from an otherwise useful and interesting discussion.  So, rather than remove the entire thread I have removed the offending replies and edited some other replies that violated ALR rules or referred to a removed reply, but also contained useful information.

Gentlemen, please refrain from petty bickering.

-Ron

[spgordon]

Thank you.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Those replies detracted from an otherwise useful and interesting discussion.

Yes.  It is indeed a useful and interesting discussion.

Discussion:  "Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation."

[spgordon]

The thing is: Google searches often find & include discussions that occurred on this forum. One never knows when a discussion here will be of use to somebody--perhaps many years later. That's why I sometimes post primary sources or whatever: at some point, somebody might find them and find them interesting.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

In 1986 there were still painted signs on brick buildings in the old downtown Clarksville area that we readable after 150 years.

[Eric Kettenburg]

The thing is: Google searches often find & include discussions that occurred on this forum. One never knows when a discussion here will be of use to somebody--perhaps many years later. That's why I sometimes post primary sources or whatever: at some point, somebody might find them and find them interesting.

Glad you bring this up.  I believe this very fact is one argument made by those who feel we should *not* be engaging in debate on a public forum, the rationale being that debating the validity of any given piece, or discussions of restoration, replacement components, enhancements etc. may ultimately affect value down the road.

I disagree, largely because I believe any piece should stand on it's own merit.  Auction companies do not get to dictate discussion, nor do temporary owners (I mean we're all temporary, after all  ).  Unless one plans to be buried with their collection, all of these pieces are going to be sold whether privately or publicly.  And sooner or later, murder will out as they say.

[spgordon]

.... the rationale being that debating the validity of any given piece, or discussions of restoration, replacement components, enhancements etc. may ultimately affect value down the road.

Yup, I agree entirely. This is the consequence of collectors being researchers as well. I know some believe that only collectors know enough to weigh in on the objects themselves. But this goes against what we know from every other conceivable field--that owning things does not produce more accurate or reliable knowledge. In fact, it is likely to produce distorted knowledge because one cannot be objective (because one's findings might shape the "value" of an object that you own, or somebody you know owns, or that you hope to own, or that you hope to have access to one day so cannot alienate the owner, etc.).

That doesn't mean that collectors cannot become extremely knowledgeable and offer reliable information.  But it does mean that there is no "natural" reason why owning something gives somebody uniquely accurate or full information about it.

I mean, it seems obvious. Experts on Rembrandts do not own Rembrandts.

[oldgunguy]

Sirs, This sign looked like I have seen it before, and I did, it was at the Eagle museum sale in June 1984. My wife and I were there for the sale, I did not buy anything as we did not have much money then, I told my wife if it went cheap I would buy it went for $ 880.00, much to much for us. on page 113 in the auction book I bought back then it said it was 10 1/2 x 46 There is some copy on it that tells a lot about it. You can give me a call to learn more.  Bernie oldgunguy on our site 610-772-4655