Creating a hooked breech??

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

So, I have a barrel with a fitted standard flintlock breechplug with bolster and tang. I want to convert it to a hooked breech.

How, besides sending it to a machine shop,   does one go about making this conversion.? Including both the plug and a fixed tang.  Is it reasonable to attempt with out anything more than a bench vise and a hacksaw???

[Robby]

Dr. Boone, If the existing plug is already properly fitted, that can be made into your hook, with a hacksaw and a vise, but you will also need some files. The standing breech can be made from a piece of angle iron, again you will need files, and a drill to start your square hole. Oh, and some patience.
Robby

[rich pierce]

The hook is no problem.  The standing breech would be a real task.  I advise getting a hooked breech, setting aside the hook, and modifying your current breechpin and tang to be "the hook".

regarding angle iron, much of it is high carbon and it tends to run thin.  Could be used though

[T*O*F]

Is it reasonable to attempt with out anything more than a bench vise and a hacksaw??? 

 
No, think about it for a while and consider all the other things that must be perfect for the conversion to work.  Touch-hole location, barrel pins, exact duplicate of the tang to fit existing mortise, etc.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Thanks.  At this point the barrel, without the tang has been inlet into the blank..ramrod hole is drilled. Thats all.

The plug has been fit to the barrel.  So I have files and saws etc....no power or machine shop tools other than a drill press and belt sander.

I like to do things to learn how, but this seems like it may be a little beyond what I want to spend in time and frustration to do...but, I don't know, I have never even seen one except in photos... I imagine the fit is crucial.

I have read that it is important to fit the tang to the hook and solder it in place before cutting the tang mortise.

I have located a builder with a machine shop who has offered to do the conversion, but I just wanted to check on the magnitude of the task for a hobbyist beginner like me before deciding.

[JTR]

Another way beside's hacksawing and filing the whole works is to first shape your existing breech plug into a hook type.
Then with dams to contain the wax, melt and pour casting wax into the tang area, back of the barrel and around the hooked breech plug of your gun.
After the wax has hardened, remove it and trim off the excess, then send the wax to one of the guys here that do lost wax casting and have them cast it for you in a suitable metal.
A good wax casting will give you a perfect fit to the hook, as well as a perfect fit to the original tang, etc.
John

PS. Ooops, I posted this without seeing your post # 4. But if you inlet a tang then did the wax it would still work.
John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tim, of course you can do it.  The way I look at these projects  is:  if someone has done it in the past, I can do it now.  And that's not giving myself any credit for imagination.
Have a look at the hooked breeches advertised in parts supply catalogues on your desk, or on-line, and see how there are made, especially the angles of the hook.  I'd stay away from the T/C design with it's flat section and little knob at the tail.  Stay with the 18th / 19th century design with the sloped hook, top and bottom.  Perhaps some of us could take some pictures of hooked breeches with the builder in mind so you can see what you must do.
As strange as it may seem to the traditional builder, I am aware of several flintlock longrifles with hooked breech tang systems, so it is not too far out there.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well,

I found that the Rifle Shoppe has a standing tang for this gun, so all I will need to do is to cut the plug and cut/fit the hook to the tang.......right?

[rich pierce]

And why are you making the hooked breech instead of buying one?  because you're happy with the fit of the current breechplug?  I till think it's easiest to buy a hooked breech system and modify your current plug to be the hook.

[James Rogers]

I have seen some made by Jim Hash where the standing part was made out of a piece of thick angle iron. I have one here that has the hook but I need to make the standing portion.

[T*O*F]

At this point the barrel, without the tang has been inlet into the blank..ramrod hole is drilled. Thats all.

It might have helped if you had given this info to start with.  You're not doing a conversion, you're doing a new build............there's a big difference, especially if it's not a precarved/preinlet kit.

You can take an existing tang, cut it off, and form your hook from the stub.
You can buy flint breeches with hooks already on them.
You can fit either to a piece of angle iron and weld on an extension for the tang.

What else did you leave out?

[James Rogers]

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

At this point the barrel, without the tang has been inlet into the blank..ramrod hole is drilled. Thats all.

It might have helped if you had given this info to start with.  You're not doing a conversion, you're doing a new build............there's a big difference, especially if it's not a precarved/preinlet kit.

You can take an existing tang, cut it off, and form your hook from the stub.
You can buy flint breeches with hooks already on them.
You can fit either to a piece of angle iron and weld on an extension for the tang.

What else did you leave out?

Assumptions get us all!!  Sorry, Since I only mentioned the barrel and plug I thought you wouldn't think I was converting an already carved or finished gun.......my bad. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

James,

That picture is worth 1000 words!!  Especially since there is a Griffin pistol barrel there with its hook!!  What book is that??


So I just ordered the standing breech (Tang half - no breech plug) from The Rifle Shoppe and when I get it I will reshape the bolster on the regular breech plug that is already fit to the barrel so that it will mate with the Standing Breech tang.

Thanks

[James Rogers]

Dr. Tim, You had it worded fine. I understood you straight off the bat as I will be attempting the same.

That's from Neal and Back's Great British Gunmakers, John Twigg and the Packington Guns 1740-1790

I also have Great British Gunamkers 1540-1740. I really want to get the one of Griffin, Tow and Bailes.

[caliber45]

Doc -- I know I need to learn to keep my electronic "mouth" shut, and that I'll get a lot of flack for this response from a lot of folks. BUT . . . I make breech/tang pairs from a hardware store bolt (breechplug), a 3/4ths-inch section of barrel "scrap" and a piece of hardware store strap steel. Breechplug extension (the round "hook" or male portionis turned down to the diameter of the barrel segment bore. You can do this by filing, then true it up in a drill press (or hand drill) if you have no lathe/mill equipment. Next, cut the strap steel to the length you want the tang, plus enough extra to bend down behind the segment of barrel (the "female" portion to accept the turned-down breechplug extension). Narrow the bent-down  segment to about bore width, and weld (assuming you have welding gear or can get a friend to weld it). You may have to file away the right portion of the barrel segment to make room for the lock "innards," incidentally. Despite common wisdom on hooked breeches, you don't need a square/rectangular hook. The barrel is held in place by the wood and by your wedge key(s). And the torque of the bullet against the rifling ain't gonna twist that sucker out of those restraints, despite some opinions to the contrary, unless you have a charge heavy enough to scare most of us. You can file flats on the outer end of the cylindrical "hook" to allow removal of the breech plug if needed for cleaning. Works great for me with my "carbines," is inexpensive, and accuracy is fine. -- paulallen, tucson

[Dave B]

When I built a few spec rifles for" the Gun works" one of the barrels I decided to try to make a hooked breach because the tangs were too small for the precarved inlets so I thought it would be one way to fill the gaps. I use a bolt from the hardware store and once properly fit, filed the squared off hooked section. Taking a section of channel beam I sliced off just enough to match the width of the barrel. I drilled out the initial hole in the breach face, squared it up then heated up the standing breach and beat the bright orange hot metal on to the square hooked section. After a couple heats this gave a nicely formed under cut to the area where the hook catches. The channel beam has a thicker web than angle iron so you have more mass to work with. I just cut off the top of the channel at the length I want my tang. It was a lot of work and would just buy a hooked breach ready to go in future projects.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

 Dave B............   You made my day..... never having seen aa hooked breech in person....I will be interested to see what I get for $20.00 from the Rifle Shoppe.   I suppose the key is to file the hook on the lug so that the barrel fits pretty tightly to the standing breech.......with the angle of the hook helping to keep it tight when the barrel is down in the channel??

Thanks

[Robby]

Doc, I know you already purchased a standing breech casting, but this set up is made from angle iron and hardware store bolts(can't remember what grade) just as Paul and Dave B suggested. I like to try things I have not done before too. Good luck!
Robby

[rich pierce]

Somebody's good with a file.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

No Duh!!     If I tried that it would look like a 1940's house trailer that had been in the junk yard since 1973...........

I see the idea though Robby, some day if I ever get the shop & tools........ I would like to try such a project.....but for now

Right now this is my shop.........

[Karl Kunkel]

Dr Tim,

You better not build any longer rifles, or they won't fit over the mantle!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Let 'em stick out Tim!  I love a long long longrifle.

[Don Getz]

Tim.....my first question would be "why?".   I am assuming you want to build a longrifles and put a hooked breech on it.
From my own personal point of view, I can't figure out why you would want to do it.   Even if you do it as a means to more easily clean the barrel, you will also probably have to install keys to hold the barrel in (more added work).  All in all
it just isn't worth the effort.   Nice picture of your guns, however, I hope this is not your "shop", if it is, you will have a difficult time doing this project................Don

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Don,

Why.......cause it's there..    No, cause I have a nice piece of highly figured black walnut and a .58 Griffin barrel inlet by Dave Rase, and an early Ketland lock  and I want to build a "Griffin Rifle"... They had hooked breeches.  Some of them anyway.   The wood is so nice I want to create a gun that will show off the wood. Minimal carving and some simple engraving.  I think this one will be finished as new from the shop...but who knows...... "This rifle belonged to the Colonel Commandant of Montgomery's Highlanders, "Archibald Montgomery, 11th Earl of Eglinton". Nice quality lock from De Witt Bailey’s collection in England. Basically there is no difference between the rifle and fowler of this time period. The lock plate measures 5 1/2" x 15/16". The throw of the cock is 1 1/2". (from the Rifle Shoppe)

http://www.therifleshoppe.com/(662).htm

This will be my first gun with keys rather than pins. another learning opportunity.  Though I rarely ever remove barrels from my guns.... locks yes, barrels no.

This is first gun from a blank..... so architecture will be critical..... I will be doing lots of (probably too much) measuring etc and will submit photos for critique and guidance along the way.