Thorough cleaning between groups a necessity?

[ScottNE]

I’ve been dialing in a .54, all groups were shot at 100 yards, point of aim was the inside tip of each triangle — Ive tried sighting in this gun often on with various combinations of different powder quantities and granulation, patching, etc, and never achieved anything resembling a group after the first few shots. It always opened up dramatically after just a few shots.

Last week, I shot target #1 — this gun always has a drastically low flier on the first shot, so flier circled on each target. Using 80 grains Old Eynsford 3f, .540 roundball, .018 pillow ticking patch lubed with spit. First group (admittedly only 2 shots after the flier) was decent. Second group opened up quite a bit, as always. I cleaned the bore quickly, not a deep clean, and shot the third group which tightened up again somewhat instead of spreading out even more. Not great results, but I was satisfied that progress had been made.

Today I shot target #2, using 70 grains 2f Swiss, .540 roundball, .018” ticking lubed with mink oil, slightly smaller triangle but same point of aim, the inside tip of the triangle. This time I cleaned very thoroughly between each group, and the results were somewhat better, I would like to tighten it up just bit more but this is the most consistency I’ve seen from this gun, after doing the one thing I always resisted doing before, cleaning thoroughly between each group.

Has anyone ever found that some guns just don’t shoot unless they’ve been scoured after every few shots? My lube and powder changed between target #1 and #2, but as mentioned I’ve tried many combinations of powder lube and patch in the past and they all yielded the same lack of consistency after a handful of shots.

The patches don’t tell me much, I was only only to find a few last week, today I picked up a bunch but when I got home only 1 was in my pocket, but it’s pretty representative of the ones from today’s session — would anyone suggest that they’re still too frayed up? The patches from last week were sufficiently cut up that I switched from spit to mink oil as mentioned

[wildthing]

try upping the powder charge . I use a 90 gr. charge of 3f goex under a 535 ball and .018 patch I get what I call good accuracy at 50 yards.  2-21/2 at 50 yards. john

[smylee grouch]

What kind of barrel is it and what ROT?

[RichG]

looks like 80 grs of 3f is to much for the spit lube. Are you working on a hunting load, plinking/trail walk ?

[ScottNE]

What kind of barrel is it and what ROT?

I’m not sure who the maker is as I’ve never pulled but the rate of twist is 1:56 by my measure.

[Lucky R A]

        I believe that you would get better groups if you were to improve your target.   At 100 yds. I would suggest a 4" black triangle inverted.   You are then using the downward point of the triangle as your aiming point.   I would find it very hard to be consistent aiming at the rather poorly defined aiming point presented by masking tape on brown paper.
        Everyone has their favorite lube, I have sued Murphy's Oil soap cut 50% w/ water for years and have been very satisfied, no cleaning for an entire woods walk and mountain man (25-30 shots).  Your powder charge seems fine, but the patches are not holding up well with spit patch. 
Ron

[WadePatton]

looks like 80 grs of 3f is to much for the spit lube. Are you working on a hunting load, plinking/trail walk ?

I don't think it's the spit. I've run as much 3f and saliva with no troubles but a heavier denim patch.

First shot from a clean bore will hardly ever print in the group.  It's why we shoot fouling shots and sighters before shooting for score (with any firearm and rested target work).

Some of us try to use a "tight enough" load (with enough lube--key) that we don't clean or wipe when shooting, ever.  In calibers over about 40 it requires a ball starter to swage the ball/patch into the muzzle.  It also requires a nice clean radius on the transition from bore to crown (easily done with a thumb and some abrasive paper).  There have been many threads on the subject.her at ALR, so I won't repeat all the details. 

Also one of the most important, but often overlooked accuracy components is consistency of the final compression of the load column.  That's the second time a nice ball starter is quite handy. We put a recess in the knob that'll accommodate the end of the packing stick, then place the knob atop the packing stick after the load is seated and give it an open-handed whack for "finalizing" the load. 

The check in this system is our mark on the rod (made once a good load has been worked up).

Some ideas from the gallery. Enjoy

ps: Yes on the target notes by Ron.  Make a target that fits your sights-and your eyes.  Also be very aware of light changes on the range during your target sessions.

[Marcruger]

My opinion is this - either use a dry-ish lube and expect to wipe between shots like a target shooter, or wet lube tight-patched and not have to wipe or clean between shots and groups. 

I don't find modern pillow ticking to be very dense or useful.  I use the untreated canvas from The Minute-Men patching.  You have to call as his website doesn't work.  Great patch material.  You can thank me later. 

If you wet lube with Mr Flintlock, it'll take care of the wiping and put the crud on TOP of the powder charge, where it gets blown out by the following shot.  Look up Daryl's numerous posts on this forum.  Mr Flintlock is a good slippery lube, and is also good at taking the graphite out of your barrel (few other cleaners will). 

I agree with others on the target you are using.  It looks a bit non-functional to me.  I use a black triangle cut out of poster paper on day-glo poster paper. 

See photos below.   Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

[Frank]

Maybe you have already done this, but I would get it dialed in at 50 yards before moving out to a hundred. I have always used a round black bull as my target.

[little joe]

I like to use a black round target as per NMLRA targets then compair my shooting to some of the best ML shooters in the world. Shoot as you want but go to Friendship and watch the champs. Most if not all wipe between shots. Me I,m too lazy and crippled and I wipe every 5 shots. The goal is to make every shot the same. Is The bore clean, good balls, good patch and how is the light  and wind then all X,s. So simple ain,t it.The book Muzzleloading Shooting and Winning With the Champions published ty the NMLRA is a excellent help plus a lot of practice.

[Jeff Murray]

Your targets reflect consistently low shots with more side to side spread than vertical spread.  You might also consider a target with a vertical cross.  Blue masking tape on white paper  plates are easy to make.  The cross lets you see both vertical and horizontal alignment while sighting and firing.  You can record load, patch etc on the back of the plate for later comparison of results.  As noted above, try a closer range to start - 50 yards gives you a better visual of sights and target alignment.  If you still have trouble, try 25 yards to confirm your load preference.  Check your sight picture to verify that the front blade remains vertical and centered in the back sight when the shot is fired.  good luck.

[Daryl]

Scott. Most of your patches are being cut when started into your bore. Do a search here for "muzzle crowns". That should help.
Your muzzle, most likely "as-received" needs smoothing.
Your accuracy will not improve until that is done.
You should be able to shoot group after group without having to clean. That you have to clean it between groups shows that fouling is building up
 It should NOT need cleaning between groups.
 It only takes me 10 minutes to clean a rifle after it's been shot all day without any wiping during the shooting.
Wade P. And Marcruger are on the money, as always.

[ScottNE]

I appreciate everyone’s responses. Definitely a lot to consider, particularly regarding the muzzle crown.

Thank you!

[recurve]

Herb came up with a way to test his rifle  builds for loads.   He loads and shoots then as he loads the next shot he adds the powder then patch and round ball starts it then puts a cleaning wet patch over the load seats the load, then pulls the wet patch out with the rod(cleaning/wiping the barrel ) .

[Marcruger]

I am not sure the advantage of that method over wet-lubing with the wet patch around the ball? Seems like it would be hard to start and drive the ball down the bore.  You're forcing the patch through the fouling.  What does he use for patch lube?   

[Leatherbark]

On the offhand line at Friendship and other NMLRA matches I wet patch and swab as I seat the ball like herb.  Really easy.  After the patched ball is started and shoved down with the short starter I lick a cleaning patch and place on the muzzle and shove the wet patched ball down and withdraw the rod with its not so dirty cleaning patch.  Wet lubed ball patch actually cleaned as I seated.  The cleaning patch on the loading rod just dries it out a little better but all the dry black powder is under the projectile.

This way you are putting your powder into a dry bore.  If you fire the rifle and then swab with a wet patch and then a dry one thinking you are drying the bore look down the barrel with a light after pouring the powder for the next shot.  A lot of powder is sticking to the not so dry bore ready to be smeared down against the dry powder.
I'm not saying swabbing while seating the ball is better.  It just makes me feel like all the dry powder is under the ball.  Probably doesn't mean diddly squat. But I see a lot of guys shove wet dung into their firing chamber as they swab and it causes many misfires.  With my system I know I've got dry powder against the nipple or touch hole with no muddy dung from wet swabbing causing shooters to want to curse.

Bob

[Daryl]

Necessary?
Definitely not for my type of shooting, where I am loading right away.  If I had to wait 15 or 20 minutes,
 I might wipe my bore with a damp then dry patch before loading again.
Try it both ways - try other methods as noted.

Use what works for you.

[hanshi]

While my old eyes are not nearly as good as just a few years ago I've never, and still don't, see the shot from a clean barrel NOT being in the group.  I don't clean until time to go home and that's just a wet patch followed by a couple of dry ones.  I quit using pillow ticking long ago after I found the thicker "mattress ticking".  And for years I haven't even been using that.  I discovered heavy canvas, along with denim, and use it for all but one rifle and a smoothbore.

Fired patches will always have frayed edges but should have no holes or burn marks in them.  A smooth crown allows the use of heavy patches.  The patches should be "reusable" if the mood hits you.  Thick patches are needed for most round bottom rifling which (in my rifles) is about .016" deep.  But I also use the same patches in square cut bores with .010" to .012" depth.  A smooth crown is needed and that's about it.