Re-locking a Hawken

[BrentD]

I bought a Hawken with a Bill Large barrel that I really like, but the lock was pure junk.  Fortunately, l found I could refit it with a new lock without any unsightly gaps.  Having done that, I liked it so much more that I decided to have it engraved by Tim Halloran, Blue Grass, Iowa.  Just got it back today.  Yes, I have a slightly different taste in engravings, and I don't care if real Hawkens were never engraved.  They didn't come with Bill Large barrels either. 

Some of you may recognize the figures.

[flinchrocket]

Apparently it’s a copy of some petroglyphs, but where from? Looks kinda cool though.

[snapper]

I have seen them in person.   Was up there on a father son canoe trip and invaded Canada one afternoon for a couple of hours.

Fleener

[FALout]

I don’t think it really matters on the engraving, it’s your rifle and you must really like the design or you wouldn’t have paid to have it done.  I’m guessing that you really like this rifle, now maybe even more, that’s what matters.

[BrentD]

Apparently it’s a copy of some petroglyphs, but where from? Looks kinda cool though.

Not to be picky, but these came from pictographs - which differ slightly from petroglyphs.  The latter being pecked into the patina on the rocks and the former being painted.  Strangely, I never hear of clearly painted cave paintings being called pictographs for some reason, just cave paintings.  (I have a rifle with cave paintings engraved on it also). 

[flinchrocket]

If I drew those designs on a piece of paper how would you tell if they came from a petroglyph or a pictograph?

[BrentD]

If I drew those designs on a piece of paper how would you tell if they came from a petroglyph or a pictograph?

I couldn't, unless I knew where the pictographs came from originally.  I didn't dream these up and I don't have a millionth of the talent necessary.  I stole them from the original, if unknown, artist(s?) that painted them hundreds of years ago. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegman_Lake_Pictograph

[flinchrocket]

Thank you . That was pretty easy to decipher. The moose mauled the guy to death, so his buddies put him in his canoe and fed him to the fishes. Leaving his dog to fend for himself.

[BrentD]

Thank you . That was pretty easy to decipher. The moose mauled the guy to death, so his buddies put him in his canoe and fed him to the fishes. Leaving his dog to fend for himself.

I like your story.  It's as good as any and when you get tired of it you can dream up a new one to go with it.  Fits with my idea that he wasn't well liked by his buds.  Basically a bully I think, but he got his ass kicked by a moose.  I'm with ya right there.  I think the wolf ate him. 

[Notchy Bob]

That "horned serpent" imagery is found all over the country, and is usually associated with a water theme.  Similar critters are seen painted on pottery and at least one shield I've seen from the desert southwest, where they are known as avanyus.



I think the engraving on the rifle lock is cool.  Not exactly traditional, but creative and meaningful to the owner.

There was a rifle on the Contemporary Makers blog a while back that had a decorative theme based on the Great Serpent Mound in Ohio.  Again, it wasn't based on any rifle from history, but it was meaningful to its owner/builder, and it came off really well.

I would like to see some photos of the complete Hawken on which this engraved lock fits, if possible.

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

[BrentD]

Here you go NB.  Most of the photos with the old junk lock. 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks, BrentD!  That's a nice looking rifle.  It has the early J&S style "big bow" triggerguard.

The view from the muzzle is informative.  I see very wide grooves, and narrow lands.  How does it shoot?  I know the theme of this thread is the engraving on the lock, but that's an interesting rifle.

Notchy Bob

[BrentD]

It shoots just great.  It is also noticeably smoother and easier to clean or reload when dirty.  It's just a nice gun.  Not too fancy (except for the new lock).

[Bob Roller]

The lock IS representative of a LOT of old American guns.The very first high end locks I ever saw were a pair of "4 pin Braziers" on a shotgun I bought in an antique shop in the late 1950's.I paid $10 for the gun and after removing the locks I gave the gun back to the store owner.Inside ,these locks were marked Joseph Brazier,Ashes.Externally they were marked either Greenway or Greenside(s).I sold them at Friendship to a man who had the same last name on the locks for $25. Years later I borrowed a fine Brazier 4 pin lock from Lynton McKenzie and managed to make a good copy and have made about 39 more after that first one as well as 3 pin variants plus 8 scaled down 4 pin types for boys rifles.Whether or not I will revive these English style locks remains to be seen. I am thinking of a Winter project if I go forward with it.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Here you go NB.  Most of the photos with the old junk lock. 

Sure like the rifling in that bore. A slight smoothing of the crown is all that is needed - imho..

[Bob Roller]

Bill Large made quite a number of barrels with this style rifling and I had one that I rebarreled a Trap Door Springfield with and it was the equal of the Alex Henry barreled Whitworth I had at the same time in accuracy if not in elegance.I rebarreled the the Springfield after the "trapdoor"broke off in my hand while ejecting a fired cartridge.There were others after mine when word got around and they were for guns that were owned by shooters that shot both muzzle loaders and black powder cartridge and the
hammer was the only difference in functionality.Getting back to the low end lock,I did make 2 similar ones for Tom Dawson at HIS
INSISTENCE when he copied the Hoffman&Campbell rifle which is a J&S Hawken and the Archie Peterson Hawken also a J&S Hawken according to Woodfill's recent book.
Bob Roller

[gunmaker]

By the engraving it could well be used for Sasquatch" hunting, along with everything else...old dog

[Daryl]

I don't understand. What is JUNK about that lock?
I do see it doesn't have quite enough curl, ie: the "throw" is too long.
It doesn't take much to make a cap pop.

[Bob Roller]

It isn't junk because it can't be used but all of us (I hope)know it's not a lock we would seek out
for a build today.These were gunsmith's locks and were an expedient and made no attempt at any
thing else.As long as they would stay cocked until the trigger hit the sear they were acceptable.
I grumbled about those two I made for Tom Dawson but he was copying a gun down to the dents in
the stock.
Bob Roller

[BrentD]

I don't understand. What is JUNK about that lock?
I do see it doesn't have quite enough curl, ie: the "throw" is too long.
It doesn't take much to make a cap pop.

among other things, it is too short on the hammer throw (fixable, of course), it has a very light mainspring (sort of fixable of course), the tail of the sear is too short to be struck by the front trigger bar (sort of fixable but not really), it has no half cock (fixable, but not really). 

It failed to fire more than 50% of the time (try shooting a match with THAT, never mind a bull elk).  So, while a lot of welding, brazing, bending, and spring making could fix this lock, it ain't worth it.   As Bob notes, even fixed up, it would still not be a lock I would want. Thus, a new lock was in order, and so it is. 

Truth be told, I may also have a chip on my shoulder about anything labeled Deer Creek when it comes to muzzleloading rifles (I have another), though I recognize not all Deer Creeks may be the same.

I'm pretty happy with the replacement so far.  Now to get it finished and then off to the range and the deer woods with it.

[BrentD]

Bob asked me to post a photo of another lock that he made which I use in my Alex Henryish long-range rifle.

[Daryl]

among other things, it is too short on the hammer throw (fixable, of course), it has a very light mainspring (sort of fixable of course), the tail of the sear is too short to be struck by the front trigger bar (sort of fixable but not really), it has no half cock (fixable, but not really). 

The LONG hammer throw is evident. The missing 1/2 cock notch is not, nor (to me) is a too-soft spring, nor the short? sear bar.

Thanks for clearing up the lock's problems. No, I would not want it either.

[Daryl]

Bob asked me to post a photo of another lock that he made which I use in my Alex Henryish long-range rifle.

THAT is a nice looking lock.

[Bob Roller]

THIS is the mechanism I have in mind if I decide to revive the idea.Not traditional** on American rifles but a rigid and smooth assembly.
** Some Eastern target rifles and other target rifles had similar locks to this one and I sent a number of these to Germany for Schuetzen rifles.Thank you Brent for the picture,
Bob Roller

[BrentD]

Bob asked me to post a photo of another lock that he made which I use in my Alex Henryish long-range rifle.

THAT is a nice looking lock.

It's pretty nice on the other side too .  Engraved a little more traditionally by the same guy. 





This is an English-styled target rifle, of course.  But on an American rifle, what I really love are the folk-art carving or engraving.  I don't mean the 12 pt buck that Junior carved into granddad's 94 Winchester, but really artful, but not formal art that adorns a very few rifles but more powderhorns.  I would collect folk-art rifles if I was a collector. 

I also like different sorts of subjects than the generic deer, elk, etc.  One of my favorite rifles of all time (a Marlin lever gun) is engraved and inlaid with a dead Auroch, a Smilodon (saber-tooth cat) standing on it, and some dire wolves and a misc buzzards circling around.  How cool would that be?   Sadly, it was out of fiscal reach at the time it was available.