Author Topic: Lancaster-ish project  (Read 1899 times)

Offline ettoreR

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Lancaster-ish project
« on: September 22, 2021, 10:11:33 PM »
I started a new rifle project a month back, My internet was to create an Isaac Haines style replica. After some initial work I decided to shelve that idea for a later time.

I am moving closer to feeling confident enough to begin working from a stock blank as opposed to a pre-carved. The pre-carved stocks are great for learning the process and familiarizing yourself with the basic architecture of the gun that you intend on building, but once you've got that down obviously the next evolution would be to build from a blank. I find with the pre-carved stocks, the rifle always tends to end up a bit less robust in certain areas, along with less opportunity to shape the stock in others. THIS IS NOT A BLANK IT IS A PRECARVED









Minimal fitting was necessary to get the barrel set into the stock (barrel is a Green Mountain 42" 15/16 .50 Caliber), once that was let, I opted to file a small dimple design into the end of the tang. The tang was pliable enough to simply be bent into a rough contour to fit in the stock, once the trigger plate is in, it can be bent/peened further with the help of the tang bolt being inserted. I filed a draft on the underside of the breech plug and tang for a nice tight fit, which resulted in the tang being held firmly into the stock. I clamped it down at the breech to inhibit it from walking out of the inlet and began contouring the tang and stock to a nice oval profile ( a Kibler colonial rifle being used as a profile refence)

Next step was inletting the lock bolster, I am using a 3 screw L&R colonial style lock.  I measured and marked the end of the breech plug on the barrel and lined my pan up according to that. Once I was sure I carefully traced the bolster and began cutting it in.








Once the bolster made contact with the barrel, I took a straight edge, flipped it on its side and coated it in red chalk. This was used to run across the lock panel to show high spots, I used my Japanese rasp to gradually take down the high spots until I have a flat panel. ( the teeth aren't points, but rather resemble the blades of a scrub plane, which leave a very clean cut, I forget the correct name but it is an awesome tool) Once the panel was flattened I reinserted my lock plate and realized that my bolster wasn't flush, but angled slightly. This was easily remedied with a little transfer color and a good mill file. With the bolster flush against the barrel I could then trace and inlet my lock plate, again a small draft was filed on the underside to allow a tight fit.   

Now that the plate is seated just above the wood, its time to inlet the guts. I started by tracing the holes through the plate, then traced the respective parts in according to the screw holes and seating depth in the mortice. I stared with the bridle, using the traced holes to place it in its correct position, traced it, and then used a hand drill to hog out a good portion of the cavity, then took over with chisels, creating a cavity that mimics the profile of the part but still allows room for movement in both operation and in the event of the wood expanding due to humidity.  I followed this procedure, reassembling the lock as I go until I have completely inlet the lock into the mortise. From there, I place transfer color on all moving parts and cycle the lock, I then remove the lock and scrape away any color until I achieve uninhibited operation. ( this will most likely have to be done a second time once the lock bolts are installed and fastened)

Unfortunately due to the nature of this particular stock, I broke into the ramrod channel.









Now to drill the lock bolts, I start with the bolt that mates into the lock bolster. I really need to get around to making a drilling jig because I somehow drilled the hole slightly cockeyed. Luckily a rat tail file fit in the hole and I was able walk the bolt hole forward just enough to get the lock seated. This now allows me to correctly position my side plate, pinning it to the stock with the bolt and giving me a pivot point to move it to match the correct position for the second bolt later on. I can now trace my side late and get that inlet.










My second lock bolt hade to be placed slightly into the upper third of the ramrod channel, later on I will give the bolt a waist and scrape a taper into the end of the rod to allow fitment.

The next plan of action is to get the butt plate on, I filed the underside of the plate smooth and traced its profile against the stock, giving it a 14.5 LOP. I used a coping saw to cut a rough shape and then got to work inletting. At first I like to use a rasp to get rid of the hard lines left from the saw and get the profile more true to that of the plate (stroke inwards to avoid chipping the sides), from there I break out the chisels and transfer color. I inlet top down, getting the plate let into the comb, then I begin hopping back and forth between the butt and the comb until the plate is entirely seated on the stock. From there, some minor adjustments with a ballpeen hammer solve any residual gaps. I then make my hole for the top screw with my awl, I mark slightly forward of center, so that the screw pulls the plate tight against the stock. I repeat this process for the second screw, marking the pilot hole slightly off center toward the toe.









Now ill tackle the fore end, starting with reducing the web between both channels to 1/8th of an inch, and shaving the shoulders down to where they will only cover the upper third of the ram rod. I then took the belly back an inch to give the rifle a longer appearance. Moving onto the entry thimble. To begin this operation, I first inlet one of the forward thimbles in the entry thimbles place, butted tight up against the ramrod hole. This allows me to better inlet the tail of the entry thimble, starting at the forward part, and slowly inletting it downward in a rocking motion. Ramrod thimbles are pretty simple operation, I prefer a small fishtail chisel. I inlet them without the barrel in order to get them seated and then file the stubs flush against the barrel's belly, this takes up any possible wiggle room. I  clamp, drill, and pin all thimbles prior to taking any material off of the stock, which gives me a flatter surface to drill into.  The tab on my ear entry thimble interfered with the barrel lug, I realized this after attempting to place the barrel back into its channel. I had to remove the pin and re-drill after filing the tab back toward the rear, I will fill the old holes later on. 


















Ill post more as I go, I like to clean it up once the rifle is buttoned up at the end, and yeah i know, the butt plate is screwed, didn't notice the dramatic dip until i stepped back. again this a pre-carved, yes the lock panels look off, I've fixed it since, I'm about 75% on this gun, I have alot of clean up and detail work to do on it.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 04:22:43 PM by ettoreR »

Online Stoner creek

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 10:28:25 PM »
Something looks a little “off” with the forward extension of your buttplate. It looks like a Bivins buttplate. It appears to have an unnatural dip downhill in the front. I would advise straightening that out and re-inlet.
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Offline martin9

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2021, 11:38:23 PM »
+1 on the buttplate. I feel like I've seen that same dipped down plate on another gun or two. Where did it come from?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2021, 12:24:23 AM »
I'm confused. Is this a blank or pre carved stock? Also, your barrel needs to be fitted back against the wood tighter at the breech. Refer to originals regarding tang finials.
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Online Stoner creek

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2021, 12:48:01 AM »
+1 on the buttplate. I feel like I've seen that same dipped down plate on another gun or two. Where did it come from?
That doesn’t exist on antique pieces. I’m glad that you noticed that too. Rock on my friend
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2021, 01:10:49 AM »
Hi,
Maybe no one else will come out and say this but I will.  You have a lot of problems there.  First, I am very glad you are working from a blank and applaud your effort.  I know you will learn a lot and that really is the key thing at the stage of building you are at.  So bravo and my comments are meant to help you.  First, your barrel tang is way too long for any Lancaster gun.  It is perhaps more appropriate for a southern mountain rifle but not anything from PA.  In truth, I do not think you can salvage the stock blank for a Lancaster project.  If you had not used a Davis American colonial lock, you might be able to turn it into some southern style rifle.  You need to look at photos of original rifles.  There are many in our virtual library.  However, using that lock means you cannot convert the project to a southern mountain rifle with any chance of historical accuracy.  My advice is to use your current stock as a learning tool for practicing your skills.  Then do research on the style of rifle you want to build, draw plans for the gun, and start over with a new stock.  You need to make a drawing of your gun first and use it as a guide. Base it on original examples or even good contemporary work but do not skip that step at your level of knowledge and skills. To do so, in my opinion, is a fatal mistake.

dave
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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 01:44:24 AM »
What is up with the muzzle?
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Offline martin9

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2021, 02:12:45 AM »
+1 on the buttplate. I feel like I've seen that same dipped down plate on another gun or two. Where did it come from?
That doesn’t exist on antique pieces. I’m glad that you noticed that too. Rock on my friend

 I meant I've seen that plate on a couple contemporary guns. Those thick wedding bands and downward bend look familiar. I think someone had a gun with that plate awhile back and Allen Martin mentioned whose casting he thought it was.....and was telling em' to bend or replace it.

Offline martin9

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2021, 02:21:11 AM »
I'd just fix that buttplate and keep building...call it "lancaster inspired" ;) Study up a bit for your next one. Getting the little details right for a particular school is part of the fun and invaluable for proper parts selection which in turn helps with proper layout and architecture. I like your muzzle file work. I got a Jaeger on the bench I gotta figure out a file pattern for.

Online Stoner creek

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2021, 02:21:20 AM »
That’s brass. It’s easy to anneal and hammer it flat. You can leave it if you want BUT sometime in the future when you have learned more you’re going to tell yourself “that doesn’t look right to me”. This is all a part of the learning process my friend.
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Offline silky

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2021, 03:50:39 AM »
Evening,

I ran into that problem with (I think) that very same butt plate.  I took it off, filed the heel to a much better shape; I won't say it's perfect, but a big improvement over my original unmodified attempt.  Had I not already installed the buttplate, I may have gone with some bending, too.

I hope this helps: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=63567.msg638793#msg638793

- Tom

Offline TommyG

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2021, 04:11:30 AM »
You have received some great advice from some of the best builders here.  I have to agree with, as I have been told many times, you need to see/study original work.  I think there might be a bit of the cart before the horse going on as well as far as your build sequence goes. You definitely need to address the buttplate issue.  The lock panels really look off to me as well.  They seem to look too short at the nose and not flowing.  Is there any reason why you did not add facets to your RR pipes?  For a Lancaster build I would have added the facets and did the file work before inletting them.  Same for the lockplate - maybe not final polished, but at least the flash knocked off and a consistent chamfer or angle filed on the perimeter before inletting.  Also, next time do your lock bolts as soon as the plate is inlet, then inlet for the internals.  Finally- get rid of the nails holding the leather to your stock supports-use gorilla glue- this WILL bite you, maybe not at this stage, but in the later final stages it will.  Trust me, we all want to see you succeed, that is why we take the time to reply.

Offline Clint

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2021, 04:34:28 AM »
Most of the comments here are around details of style and most of them are on the mark. Your wood working skills are evident in the fit of all the parts and you obviously have steam up. Keep going and go whole hog, make and install a 4 piece patch box, shape the pipes and don't forget the toe plate and muzzle cap. You mentioned pre-carved rifles and as you are now working from a plank, I presume there will be another rifle and another again. Each rifle we build lodges itself in our mind and we repeat the things that turned out well. The things we don't like or learn to do better are the evolution of becoming really good. A lot of us are still on the journey.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2021, 03:20:21 PM »
You have embarked on a long, and fun, voyage through history.
Do not be diminished in any way by the comments we are making.  I think a uniform opinion would say, "Bravo!  You've set foot on the trip to become a great gunsmith!"
Go ahead and finish what you've started, if possible, and use the comments to fix what you can on this rifle - it will all become a lot clearer with your second, and more so with your 3rd, and so on.  Finish this one to the best of your abilities, then go out and shoot the heck out of it.  Put up some pop bottles, maybe a melon or two, and for sure, a heap of target papers.
You are going to note, going forward, that we are largely a gang of perfection-seeking history guys.   I don't really think that any of us, except maybe Mike Brooks, have achieved that perfection.  Yet.  But as a group, we give well-meant guidance to each other.  And brother, YOU are part of the gang now.
On this one, work on inletting, forearm shaping, things like that.  And enjoy the ride that you'll probably be on for the rest of your life - and may it be a long one.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2021, 04:00:26 PM »
Mike Brooks aint' jack $#*& when it comes to talent around here.

 I'm not being mean here, but I'd like to point out that that piece of wood doesn't qualify as a "blank" but more as a miss shaped sort of pre-carve. I'd not start with something like that as it creates more work than it saves, you're really locked in to what you can do with it. Take a look at my building tutorial to learn how to build a gun from a square block of wood.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2021, 04:14:44 PM »
Hi Mike,
I made the mistake of misreading EttorreR's initial post about working from a blank.  He wrote that he was working up to it but it is clear this one is a precarve.

dave
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Lancaster rifle project
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2021, 05:53:29 PM »
Hi Mike,
I made the mistake of misreading EttorreR's initial post about working from a blank.  He wrote that he was working up to it but it is clear this one is a precarve.

dave
I couldn't figure it out either. his inletting skills are good enough he needs to go with a real blank. I wouldn't sweat the lock choice, I could make that work. That Bivins buttplate needs to be abolished from the face of the earth. I absolutely hate those things, poor styling.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?