Another Trigger Guard Challenge!

[Bob Gerard]

This trigger guard is for the Pecatonica Tennessee Classic kit rifle. It is my second attempt and it does not look like it will work.  (When I tried to cold bend the first one, it broke at the stem connecting the grip to the rear flat- lesson learned about the limots of cold-bending cast steel).
After cutting and filing away the casting sprues, I saw the shape of the guard is not even close to the shepe of the stock. I tried to slightly bend it but came to realize that even if I heat this puppy red-hot, the basic design will not match up with the stock. Additionally, the bow seems rather tight for the double-set triggers. (It is pictured with the rear trigger engaged)
If anyone has had success with this trigger guard on a Tennessee Classic from Pecatonica, please share your story!
I was checking options and think the Southern Mountain style sold by TOW might be a much better option. (I did a quick photoshop to see how it would line-up.)
Attached is a photo of how the current trigger guard lays on the stock. I am at a loss to see how it can be manipulated to fit into place.

[Bob Roller]

THAT problem is a foundry that casts these guards from whatever can be melted and used.I have used or tried
to use cast steel lock plates  and had them break into several pieces.The distance shown in your picture shouldn't
even be a problem but a lack of quality control on the part of the foundry is their gift to you and others who try to use them.
If you have access to a torch bigger than a Bernz-O-Matic you might be able to anneal that section of the guard or all of it.
When I started making locks years ago cast steel parts were being made but foundries were not interested in quality control and I well remember what L.C.Rice told me about one foundry owner who said "We do production and that's IT".He was having trouble cast springs then and when a reputation is riding on an indifferent supplier that is bad news.
Bob Roller                                   

[heinz]

Mr. Roller is correct. 
It might be time for you to learn how to bend up and braze a trigger guard from 2 or 3 pieces of mild steel stock.  It is not difficult and would set your SMR off from the herd a bit.

The forum will walk you through the process.

[Bob Gerard]

Thank you Rob Roller. I will try using heat to try and bend the guard into shape. But in my mind’s eye I can’t image how that front bow can be shaped into position. The front “flat” will been to be bent downward quite a bit. I have a gut feeling it won’t make it, but I will try.
This is a set that a customer ordered for me to build so I am hesitant to experiment on it. Crafting a trigger guard from scratch is not something I would attempt for this assembly.

[rich pierce]

In a dedicated kit, the guard should conform to the stock. I guess if it’s a parts package (which some “kits” are, one can expect to do some fiddling. But the guard should be able to handle the triggers supplied!!!

I’d ask for a replacement trigger guard, even if you never use it you could swap it or something. They need to know it’s not right.

I have only bent cast steel parts at a forging heat. There’s no telling what they used to cast that run.

[Bob Roller]

In a dedicated kit, the guard should conform to the stock. I guess if it’s a parts package (which some “kits” are, one can expect to do some fiddling. But the guard should be able to handle the triggers supplied!!!

I’d ask for a replacement trigger guard, even if you never use it you could swap it or something. They need to know it’s not right.

I have only bent cast steel parts at a forging heat. There’s no telling what they used to cast that run.

YES and I would keep returning these guards until SOMEBODY wakes up and gets after the foundry owner.
Quality control  or lack of it in critical parts for these and most muzzle loaders has been a pain in the fanny for way too
long.Paying what now passes for money and getting poor merchandise has to be curbed.
Bob Roller

[Bob Gerard]

Thanks Rich. I did order another guard from TOW that looks like a better fit. Unfortunately my discussion with Pecatonica didn’t really help, though he said others have used this guard before. I am glad I have a backup plan of sorts.I am going to use a propane gas torch to heat this red hot to bend. I think the bend will need to happen in the center of the bow and then tweak the mounting flats.

[T*O*F]

my discussion with Pecatonica didn’t really help, though he said others have used this guard before.

I have used that guard several times and am using one now.  I cold bent them with no problems.  I bend them only with my hands using my thumbs as a fulcrum point.

From your pictures, it looks like you are trying to bend the front.  Place the front on the wood and work on bending the rear part.  Then make minor adjustments as required.  It's easy to blame the foundry, but sometimes it's just the guy doing the work and approaching it wrong.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Bob, I agree with Dave.  I can see that guard fitting nicely.  But start by laying the front extension against the wood, not the rear one.  Then you will be able to see where the grip rail and/or the rear extension will need to be bent to follow the stock's curve.  And remember, the whole extension both front and rear gets inlet flush with the wood.

[Bob Roller]

It looks to me if the guard must be bent no matter what. It will take quite a recurve to get that guard in no matter what approach is used.The main thing as in installing a Hawken guard is to be SURE the REAR trigger is set before drilling and tapping the hole for the bow of the guard.
Bob Roller

[Bob Gerard]

Thanks Rob. Yeah, just as I expected, it broke (again).  There was really no way to get that guard to fit.
I heated the rail to cherry red hot and then gently pulled the back upward, and sure enough, it snapped at exactly the same spot as the first trigger guard broke.
I spoke with the customer and we decided that another Southern Mountain style guard would be better.
I am attaching pics to show the break. It looks very weird, with the heavy graining and the black spots inside as well. I am not a metal worker, but I do know this is just ridiculous.

[T*O*F]

just as I expected, it broke (again).  There was really no way to get that guard to fit.
I heated the rail to cherry red hot and then gently pulled the back upward, and sure enough, it snapped at exactly the same spot as the first trigger guard broke.

Maybe it broke because that's not where you bend it.

[Bob Gerard]

Right. It’s not where I tried to bend it.

[T*O*F]

You shouldn't even put any pressure on the rear extension.  It's the weakest part of the whole guard.

[Dave B]

Bob I feel your frustration. It is always easy to close the corral after the horses are out. The problem is that small neck cant take the force of bending even hot metal. The trick for this operation is to make studs that are mounted in a metal base block or use a couple  bolts clamped in your vice the shanks sticking up so one goes through the loop curl on your rail fnial and the other butting up along the transition of the rail to the back base plate section. once bright red/orange drop the guard on the studs and bend. The supported areas will force the portion that is hot to bend where you want it.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... Bob,... the best solution would be to have one of the builders on this site to hand forge you one,.. there are a couple guys on this site who could do this,...they are more historically correct than any cast one I have seen,....send a tracing of the bottom line of your stock and it will arrive made to fit,... regards,... CCF

 

[coutios]

   That dark spot is a slag inclusion. other wise known as a bad casting. Return it get your money back and follow CCF's lead. If you received two like that there's more floating around.. You can see how thin the steel was surrounding the inclusion. Surprised it didn't
crack when the removed the gates... Best of Luck Dave

[Daryl]

   Surprised it didn't
crack when the removed the gates... Best of Luck Dave

He didn't get that far, coutios. The gates are still on the broken T-guards.

[RAT]

I agree with Mr. Fiddler. Original iron guards of this type were forged... not cast. There are tutorials on this site that take you step-by-step on how to make one yourself, if you're so inclined.

And just for general information... ditch the propane torch. It will never give you enough heat to do anything beyond soft soldering. I have 2 forges... and a small oxy/acetylene torch... but my go-to for most stuff is a simple Bernzomatic Mapp torch. It handles maybe 80% of my gunbuilding heat needs. My next go-to is my NC tool co. 2-burner propane forge. Yes it's propane, but it's also an actual blacksmithing forge.

I wish I hadn't spent my money on the small oxy/acetylene. I should have gotten a regular welding torch instead.

I've also had good luck with a Bernzomatic oxygen/Mapp torch. More heat than the Mapp torch alone. But it's really tricky adjusting the oxygen flow. And it goes through oxygen bottles in nothing flat. All of the Bernzomatic torches use the same small size bottles as the propane you're currently using. They're available at most local hardware stores, and all big-box home improvement stores.

[Clark Badgett]

If you have broken 2 in the same spot, then you are bending it in the same wrong spot. You need to be bending it in a wider flatter spot, like the finger rail area and not even touching the rear pad.

[Bob Gerard]

We decided to go with another trigger guard which hopefully will more accommodating.
If this were my own rifle I would be thinking about outsourcing to someone more capable with these iron guards. Hopefully the next one will do the job.
Thanks also for the info on the torch I used. As I mentioned, metal work like this is not something I ever did before.
Maybe a nice wooden Jaeger type trigger guard would work haha 

[coutios]

     Right you are Daryl. That still doesn't make it a good casting. Nothing would have prevented those castings from failing under any kind of stress conditions. He needs to get his money back... His call on what's next... Best to All  Dave

[Bob Gerard]

Coutios, they are obviously the same castings, but one was sold to my customer by Pecatonica (it came with the component parts for this 'kit'), and the second one I bought from MBS after the first one broke. I doubt that either would refund the cost even if they are faulty because I attempted to alter (modify) them.
It's a $50 loss and experience gained.

[Bob Gerard]

I finally had success with a new style Southern Mountain trigger guard which I worked on yesterday and this morning. It is also cast iron and needed some bending but not that much. I was a bit nervous, but the third time was the charm.
I decided the best way to mount it was using a pin through the small tab in the front and I used a screw at the rear of the trigger guard. Because the bow has a lower profile, I just needed to grind down a bit off the tip of the rear set trigger. It fits great now.
With that step done, I was able to finish shaping the stock and doing the grain-raising thing a few times. I think tomorrow it may even get stained.

[steven baker]

Hi Bob , thats what I call "a sure fit for Sunday" .Looks like your almost at the checkerd flag.
Take care Steven.