Author Topic: 4f?  (Read 4048 times)

Offline snowman485

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4f?
« on: September 30, 2021, 11:42:29 PM »
Hey guys im new to flintlocks and was wondering if 4f can be used as the main powder charge for small bore flinters. Not sure if charges would need to be reduced ?

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2021, 11:48:44 PM »
No, no and heck no! 3F in the barrel on small bores (and pan if you like) 4F is for priming ONLY!
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline snowman485

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2021, 01:27:11 AM »
Thank you

Offline stikshooter

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2021, 02:17:01 AM »
Do a little research here's an article that says otherwise and I have used 35-40 grof OE 4F in my H+A under hammer on squirrels and the TC Renegade doesn't mind either !




Offline AZshot

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2021, 02:42:06 AM »
That's not research....posting a partial picture of an article with no attribution of who wrote it. Anyone can write anything.  "I heard you can use xyz..."
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 05:30:07 PM by AZshot »

Offline Not English

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2021, 03:34:49 AM »
AZ, be nice. That is research, whether it's good or bad is determined by careful evaluation. For my part, I would never load with 4F. Among other things, it's fine enough that you might end up self-priming when running a patched ball home.

Dave


Offline Marcruger

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2021, 02:57:49 PM »
Yes.  Who knows the credentials of the person who wrote that?  Also, the article is referring to powder made 200 years ago, and we are not using that powder. 

Conventional safety protocol says do NOT use 4f in a bore.  To what purpose anyway?  In big bores 2f is the traditional accuracy powder to try first. In small bores start by trying 3f.  The middle ground of .45 cal to .50 cal could go either way (2f or 3f) for accuracy. 

If we do not call out someone who promotes unsafe practices, we are setting up a beginner for bad habit if they read that.

God Bless, and be safe,   Marc

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2021, 03:30:33 PM »
I won’t vouch for the safety of that article, but it is an NRA published article. For what that is worth.
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Offline MuskratMike

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2021, 07:18:01 PM »
I wasn't going to step into this post but I do agree with Marc and AZ. There is no reason to post part of an article that talks about using a powder made 200 years ago and today we know it is reckless and unsafe to use 4F in anything other than priming.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline DavidC

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2021, 07:24:55 PM »
The powder shortage will suck but don't try using 4f just because it is available.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 03:30:22 PM by T.C.Albert »

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2021, 07:29:26 PM »
I wasn't going to step into this post but I do agree with Marc and AZ. There is no reason to post part of an article that talks about using a powder made 200 years ago and today we know it is reckless and unsafe to use 4F in anything other than priming.

I really don’t have a dog in this fight as I have no 4f powder, but are there any conclusive tests that were done to show 4fg to be dangerous as a main charge or is this just case of scuttlebutt that has been repeated often enough to be thought true while maybe not true?
Psalms 144

Offline Robby

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2021, 07:55:56 PM »
From what I've seen, what the Brit's call a really fine powder is very close to 3F in appearance, maybe a touch smaller, definitely not 4F.
Robby
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2021, 07:57:17 PM »
 For heaven sakes, it all the same formula, just smaller granules. When I bought my first black powder gun it was a revolver. I could only find 4F powder locally, so thats what I used. Yeh, that first shot was quite a surprise, but after that I cut the charge in half, and made up the difference with Cream of Wheat, and shot up the rest of the can that way. I wouldn’t recommend it, but it could be done. It would beat the heck out of trading off my guns for a set of golf clubs.

 Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2021, 08:37:28 PM »
While I have "heard" of using 4F as the main charge in smaller bores, like .22 and .25's, it would not work well in a flinter due to blowing out the vent as you seat the patched ball.
Too, being a very fast burning powder, and the FACT that WW Greener posted a picture of a blown up SxS .45 cal. rifle when loaded with "fine" powder, I would suggest you would be on
 thin ice to use it in anything but tiny loads in small bored rifles. The reason for the blowup as described by him, was due to the powder detonating instead of burning.
The finer the powder, the shorter the "burn" time. We all know that, or we should?
Daryl

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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2021, 09:51:33 PM »
The thing about the dangers of using 4Fg as a main charge is due in part to the fact that what has been on the market as the old GOEX 4f powder is that it was no longer an actual grain size range.  It was little more than screening process tailings.  The grain size ranged down to some very small stuff.  As fine as a 200 mesh screen.  Normally way back the screening unit "tailings" went back to the powder press to be worked back into the product stream. But since the 4f would be used for flintlock pan powder there was no question of blowing a gun up so they simply packaged the screening tailings as 4F.  Another thing with this screening tailings 4f is that it is very rich in graphite.  With the way graphite bonds to the steel in the barrels it makes cleaning that barrel squeaky clean becomes very difficult.  There are few "soaps" or solvents than can actually break that bond between the microscopic particles of graphite and the steel of the barrel.

With graphite in the bore you do not burn it during the firing of the gun even thought it is essentially pure graphitic carbon.  Graphite does not ignite until the temperature goes over 2,000 degrees and then burns only very slowly.  So it does not burn when you shoot the charge in the gun.  Think of carbon graphite rods in the old searchlights.

Offline Brokennock

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2021, 04:48:24 AM »
There is a British gentleman on another forum who uses 4f as a main charge all the way up to his 20 gauge trade gun. It sounds like the charge size is greatly reduced compared to what one might use of even 3f.
I'm not saying it should be done. But, it can be done and is being done. Just like any loading endeavor in unpublished or new territory, work up. Start very light.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2021, 05:33:52 PM »
There is a British gentleman on another forum who uses 4f as a main charge all the way up to his 20 gauge trade gun. It sounds like the charge size is greatly reduced compared to what one might use of even 3f.
I'm not saying it should be done. But, it can be done and is being done. Just like any loading endeavor in unpublished or new territory, work up. Start very light.

On a particularly long thread over there we were finally able to flesh out that what that ‘4f in the bore proponent’ calls 4f is some Euro market powder called ‘pistol powder’ (and so obviously ‘4f’) but with grains the size of our common 3f powders. I think 4f in the bore is another variation of the same sort of tell as shooting 280g/3f charges at the range.

….or perhaps it just shoots cleaner, has more velocity, and no down sides at all…..
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 06:27:28 PM by Bob McBride »

Offline stikshooter

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2021, 07:26:17 PM »
My old Lyman book shows max charge of 4F behind a 138 gr RB as being 37.0 grains of C+H 4F in an 8 inch barreled 44  943 FPS just saying (1974 ) 4F was listed quite often and like I said it works in my guns ,not yours just mine/Ed

Offline Daryl

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2021, 09:36:23 PM »
I think some context is needed, here.
I see (Lyman book) the 4F pressure given in the .36 handgun loaded with a 150gr. slug & 15gr. was 3,000LUP higher than the same charge & bullet used with 3F.
With round balls, the 27.5gr. 4F pressure was only a couple hundred LUP over the 29gr. 3F GO load - .36 revolvers.

The 1860 Army's load was 37gr. of either C&H or GO 4F. The GO produced higher pressure but only slightly.
GO 3F in the .44 at 37gr. produced higher velocity and 200LUP more pressure than did the 4F GO powder.
The same slight drop in pressure with the 4F occurred in the .44's when using the 155gr. slugs, except the 4F produced slightly higher vel.

There are no FFFFG loads listed for any rifles, from .36 on up.
Only 2F was used in the shotguns.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2021, 08:50:19 PM »
I think some context is needed, here.
I see (Lyman book) the 4F pressure given in the .36 handgun loaded with a 150gr. slug & 15gr. was 3,000LUP higher than the same charge & bullet used with 3F.
With round balls, the 27.5gr. 4F pressure was only a couple hundred LUP over the 29gr. 3F GO load - .36 revolvers.

The 1860 Army's load was 37gr. of either C&H or GO 4F. The GO produced higher pressure but only slightly.
GO 3F in the .44 at 37gr. produced higher velocity and 200LUP more pressure than did the 4F GO powder.
The same slight drop in pressure with the 4F occurred in the .44's when using the 155gr. slugs, except the 4F produced slightly higher vel.

There are no FFFFG loads listed for any rifles, from .36 on up.
Only 2F was used in the shotguns.
I wonder if ANY research was done beyond revolvers?Maybe pressure tests on rifle charges in bullet guns like Whitworths and Henrys are needed so we wkill know what is safe and what is not.I would think a muzzle loader
made from high quality matereal would have no problem.Tests with 40 grains of 4rg and a 500 grain bullet and the same bullet with 40 grains of 3fg the chronograph might show something.
Bob Roller

Offline Ezra

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2021, 12:49:13 AM »
I agree with those here in the “no” camp.  I also have no doubt there are those who have, and do use 4f as a main powder charge.  That said, just because you can, does not mean you should.  Kinda like Russian roulette.


Ez
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2021, 06:00:10 AM »
If Goex stays down for good, and imported supplies keep being lethargic in getting to distributors, we may just end up seeing those with 4F powder doing some in depth experimenting.

Glad I got plenty of 1,2 & 3F on hand. I might even start using the Null-B powder as the prime like I one time planned to just to save few grains from the horn I've been using for priming.
Psalms 144

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2021, 02:01:00 PM »
There are a lot of muzzle loaders around wirh barrels of questionable matereial and antiques with a drum and nipple that shouldn't be fired with anything.Tests are the only way to find out and I think Hungry Horse's comment about the powder being the same formula may be valid.There is only one way to find out.A test using a chronograph and incremental loads of 4fg and 3fg wirh balls or bullets of the same weight can give us all an idea as to what is safe and what is not.Barrel quality will also be tested as well.
Bob Roller

Offline dstock

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2021, 05:31:52 PM »
I've been reading this thread with some interest. First let me say I agree don't do it. When I was young dumb indestructible and didn't know any better either. I also didn't know there was different granules of powder. I had an old mountain rifle handed down to me from my mom's family. I decided I wanted to shoot it. I started asking around about some powder an some guy gave me a pint jar about half full of black powder. I loader er up went to shooting. Well some time later I was talkin to a guy that knew a little about shooting black powder guns and he informed me that I was using about three times more powder than I should. I adjusted the load down to where he told me to and shot some more. I started building muzzle loading rifles when I was 23 and still build occasionally. The powder the man gave me was 4ffff! I still have about half of that powder left. All this happened when I was about 15 and I still have the rifle and it has not been fired since.
Thanks and GOD Bless   Doug B
God Bless
Doug B

Offline Ezra

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Re: 4f?
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2021, 06:22:42 PM »
I've been reading this thread with some interest. First let me say I agree don't do it. When I was young dumb indestructible and didn't know any better either. I also didn't know there was different granules of powder. I had an old mountain rifle handed down to me from my mom's family. I decided I wanted to shoot it. I started asking around about some powder an some guy gave me a pint jar about half full of black powder. I loader er up went to shooting. Well some time later I was talkin to a guy that knew a little about shooting black powder guns and he informed me that I was using about three times more powder than I should.


Well, I can empathize with your youthful enthusiasm, devoid of common sense.  Frankly, when I sit down and think about it, there are at least 20 incidents of varying kinds in my youth, that I was either VERY lucky to survive or flat out should not have survived.  God truly does watch over drunks and fools.  For a significant period, long ago, I was both.  Now I’m just a 64 year old fool.  But I can live with that…

Ez
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"