Author Topic: Do we have a Lock Builder on here  (Read 2362 times)

Offline D. Keith Lisle

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Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« on: October 11, 2021, 11:27:50 AM »
I have a Joe Manton lock casting set from The Rifle Shoppe. After receiving g it,
I realized it is way past a assembly, and needs a Real lock builder, which I am not.
Most lock guys building for lock companies want to stay with what they are making
& I understand that.

I want someone that Knows what he/she is doing, as I can easily ruin it by myself.

Is this someone’s “cup of tea”, so to speak, on here ?

Thanks

Keith

Offline little joe

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2021, 11:48:35 AM »
Bob Roller Please step forward.

Offline rick/pa

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 12:16:00 PM »
I don't know if this will help but here's a link to building a Manton lock, possibly the one you're talking about.

https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 02:25:05 PM »
Bob Roller Please step forward.

25 years ago at age 60 I made two sets of these TRS locks and used my own mechanisms
but now at 85 I have no intention of doing this again.Last evening a friend called and offered
me $500 to make one more lock on the L&R Manton plate and I turned him down.He can easily
afford that price so the offer was valid.Good luck in your quest fot a lock maker.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 02:36:47 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline D. Keith Lisle

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 03:14:40 PM »
I knew you didn't want to mess with them, that's why I didn't ask.    ;)

But you  Were 1st on my list.

Regards

Keith


Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2021, 03:46:12 PM »
PM sent
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Telgan

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2021, 07:19:49 PM »
I don't want to mention any names - I'm afraid if I rat them out they will skin me alive .     .        .

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2021, 07:24:18 PM »
Sounds like subject that could use an in depth tutorial. I’ve got a couple of these advanced lock projects in the pipeline and it would be nice to not stumble along blindly, then again I’ve always learned best by just doing it.
Psalms 144

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2021, 07:44:11 PM »
I once thought that I could put a lock together from parts I attained indirectly from the late John Clark. It sure would have been a nice lock too!!!   Had I have asked for help like Keith is doing in this thread. 

I did however learn to appreciate all the work and dedication we have going today with our suppliers making better products than our colonial ancestors had!
Joel Hall

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 08:08:15 PM »
Sounds like subject that could use an in depth tutorial. I’ve got a couple of these advanced lock projects in the pipeline and it would be nice to not stumble along blindly, then again I’ve always learned best by just doing it.

When the flimsiness of these parts is considered it will take more than a tutorial.IF someone made NEW mould masters to these configurations to compensate for shrinkage it would make for a better lock but the next to zero need or demand for fancy locks is also next to zero.Few if any American muzzle loaders are found with finely crafted locks including the venerated and beloved Hawken.I still haven't decided about making some "Hawken"
style locks with the 3 pin bridle like the last one I made in 2019.I know the purists won't approve of them but my decisions aren't based on that or them.
  The Clark lock was/is a fine one and I made several locks on his external parts and used a John Manton internal
parts pattern with the bridle that has 2 screws side by side and the sear on a precise screw with the threads imbeded below the surface of the plate.. I saw an original cased John Manton at Friendship along about 1970 and used it as a pattern for internal lock parts ever since.It is not a hard one to copy like some of the 3 and 4 screw styles found in later caplocks.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 04:08:51 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Joe Stein

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 08:31:04 PM »
You might want to give Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders a call. They have done some locks for people on this forum. I have seen their hand forged locks at Dixon's and they are very good.

Offline Rolf

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2021, 08:31:40 PM »
I have castings for four manton pistol locks from Blackley, England. Two for duelers and two for a double barreled pistol.
The dimpels on the lockplates don't line up with the screw hole markings on the bridels. There are other minor flaws, mostly due to casting shrinkage. As far as I can see, the best solution is to use the cast "guts" as models and machine new parts that fit.
I still have alot to learn about lock building before I can attempt these projects.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2021, 09:27:12 PM »
To me,the idea of my reputation riding on the possible indifference of a foundry that
doesn't share my ideas about quality control is frightening.The plates,cocks,hammers
and frizzens seem to be useable but the LOCK is INSIDE the plate on any lock.It is the
engine under the hood and I won't risk my reputation on having these critical parts
made by some one else,not now or ever.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 11:52:48 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2021, 12:42:48 AM »
When building locks from raw castings you should NEVER use the cast in dimples blindly to drill your holes. Sometimes they are correct, often they are not. With TRS castings, which in my view are excellent and a joy to work with, they fill the old holes, usually above the surface of the surrounding metal, probably with clay before making the master. As a result the holes are a big indistinct, so it is better to just file them smooth and take your own measurements. I have built many TRS locks, when properly made, they are among the best sparking locks available. It also helps to follow their directions  on heat treating , and not the way old Gomer at the local  auto parts store says to do it.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 01:22:36 AM »
They must have improved the moulds because the external parts I had for
Manton locks required a lot of cleaning up and required straightening.That
was years ago and I recall a 9 month waiting time.At this point in my life
I don't care who's making what or what is being used.I think the external
parts of the 3 different L&R locks I used were really good and I have had
no problem at all in using them.I still have a semi finished lock that I MIGHT
complete and sell.It is the one that was called "Ashmore"and has a round tail
plate.I am glad you have had success with these TRS parts.
I didn't try to use the witness marks in the plates and after getting them to a
useable condition I used my own drilling guides.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 01:39:21 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2021, 01:41:25 AM »
Hi Keith,
I would take it on but I have too much other work right now.  To do a Manton lock justice requires time because he made or had made for him the best flintlocks ever.  With his locks, it is not easy to swap out internal cast parts because you may not find their match unless you machine them yourself.  Does this one have a sliding safety bolt?

dave

PS Someone mentioned Brad Emig.  He might be a good choice to try.

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 02:29:24 AM »
They must have improved the moulds because the external parts I had for
Manton locks required a lot of cleaning up and required straightening.That
was years ago and I recall a 9 month waiting time.At this point in my life
I don't care who's making what or what is being used.I think the external
parts of the 3 different L&R locks I used were really good and I have had
no problem at all in using them.I still have a semi finished lock that I MIGHT
complete and sell.It is the one that was called "Ashmore"and has a round tail
plate.I am glad you have had success with these TRS parts.
I didn't try to use the witness marks in the plates and after getting them to a
useable condition I used my own drilling guides.
Bob Roller

You are correct, they do need cleaning up and usually straightening. But, the actual casting surface is usually pretty good. Considering their very reasonable price and the fact they have hundreds of locks available to order, I am a fan. As far as waiting, I have always found them accurate on the delivery date for castings, (I think if you order one built by Jess, it might take MUCH longer) But, I waited over a year once for one of Chambers early Jaeger locks, and they told me that when I ordered it. All these companies are at the mercy of foundries and these are small runs even for the largest lock makers. If you want to make something other than another generic Pennsylvania or SMR, TRS is about the only game in town. They are fun projects but you do need at least a lathe, drill press and a good set of reamers, an acetylene torch and a heat treatment oven.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Roger B

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2021, 02:50:31 AM »
I had Brad Emig tune a pretty miserable flintlock (manufacturer unnamed) for me a couple of weeks ago & it came back as a real champ. Im a believer in Cabin Creek.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 03:05:47 PM »
This thread has revived an OLD memory of making a lock from some castings made in England that were
fine,cleanly done and straight.I don't remember who I made it for but it was a Manton style and I made
all the innards for it.Probably 50 years ago or longer.
Bob Roller

Offline mikeyfirelock

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2021, 11:06:44 PM »
Just came in from shop and had read this thread previously today.    I picked up my 1989 copy of Gunsmithing tips and projects [ Wolfe Publishing……there I gave credit}.    And notoced an article by John Bivins ………Precision Assembly of Lock Kits…..thought this might be of interest to those reading this thread..  It details the assembly of a Siler kit by Monte Mandarino in their shop.   very informative .   I believe this book is still available in a much newer edition.
Mikeyfirelock
Mike Mullins

Online David Rase

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2021, 09:09:04 PM »
I am currently assembling a small doglock (3" x 5/8" plate with a 3/4" cock throw) from Chris Hirsch.  Beautiful castings that fit good and clean up easily.  Building this lock will be enough for me for at least a year.  The sad part is that I have no use for this lock but it was way high on the cool factor and it looked like a challenge. 
David

Offline Ezra

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2021, 09:59:55 PM »
You might want to give Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders a call. They have done some locks for people on this forum. I have seen their hand forged locks at Dixon's and they are very good.

I second this.  Brad Emig and his son Shane are first rate.  I have had many flintlock made and repaired by them.  (717) 757-5841.  They are located in Hellam, Pennsylvania.

Ez
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and guidance of wise men"

Offline D. Keith Lisle

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2021, 04:10:18 AM »
Hi Keith,
I would take it on but I have too much other work right now.  To do a Manton lock justice requires time because he made or had made for him the best flintlocks ever.  With his locks, it is not easy to swap out internal cast parts because you may not find their match unless you machine them yourself.  Does this one have a sliding safety bolt?

dave

PS Someone mentioned Brad Emig.  He might be a good choice to try.

dave

Yes, it is the one with the sliding safety.  I really like the lock.  Don’t know what to put it
on though. First one I saw was on a halfstock. But I would want it on a fullstock. Ever since
I saw this I have wanted this style lock on a fullstock.





Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2021, 06:22:52 PM »
Beautiful high end lock but at this point in my career it is now way too labor intensive for me ro even think about making and I do hope there is someone who will tackle it.
Bob Roller

Offline D. Keith Lisle

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Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2021, 11:07:07 PM »
Oh, I don’t expect it to be engraved. I just want to get the lock built & reliable.