Author Topic: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video  (Read 3896 times)

Offline spgordon

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Hey everybody,

I gave a talk over the weekend--and, as prep for it (timing my talk to the slides), I recorded it all on a video. It's about 40 minutes, so it's much longer than the other talk I shared back in the spring about the puzzle of Christian Oerter's signatures.

The talk focuses on a 1773 rifle that Christian Oerter made for a wealthy Mennonite farmer in Lancaster County. But it ranges broadly beyond this, since it's really a very condensed version of a long article in the works about how Pennsylvania armed itself in 1775 and 1776 when efforts at making new arms failed and so patriot officials began taking arms from non-associators.

If you do take the time to watch it, I'd be interested (as always) to know what you think.

I hope this link works!

https://lehighonline.hosted.panopto.com/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=7321cf03-9599-4c5b-b270-adbe00f63c58
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 07:06:19 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline blienemann

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2021, 12:16:33 AM »
Scott, your presentation was outstanding, as we would expect. So many fascinating and often new stories woven into the travels of one fine rifle. Great illustrations! This should also be a paper, small book, or as you mention, perhaps part of a larger book. A version would make a great followup to the article on Oerter's letter in the KRA Bulletin a few years back.

You indicated that you had a full room for the audience, and I don't imagine many were gun collectors or students of gunmaking, which you addressed in the beginning of your talk. I am curious what sort of questions and reactions you did receive? Wish I could have been there, but thanks so much for making this available! Bob

Offline WESTbury

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2021, 12:25:05 AM »
Scott,

Thank you for posting your presentation, I enjoyed it very much and I feel I have a much greater understanding of the hit or miss arms procurement efforts during the early years of the Rev  War. Thankfully, the French eventually came through with weapons and begrudgingly with troops.

I was interested in your analysis of the Baer/Oerter rifle relative to the price paid for it and how that relates to some of the other Christian Springs produced rifles which were valued at 25 to 30% less. Baer, as you point out, was a well off man for the period and could afford to purchase a high-end rifle. I would imagine that the majority of Lancaster citizens and customers for rifles were not as fortunate.

This drives home the point very aptly expressed by Pat Hornberger on page "XX" of the Preface to his book The Lancaster Longrifle. Many of the surviving longrifles we have admire today as works of art, and for good reason, were the exception. Their value assured their survival coupled with the fact that the well-off owners of these great rifles were not dependent on them to put food on the table and defend their homes in times of danger. They had others to perform those tasks.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2021, 01:10:57 AM »
Kent: In the annual inventory at Christiansbrunn in 1772 (if I remember correctly), there was 1 new rifle valued at £4.15.0 (so nearly £5.0.0) and in 1773 there were 3 new rifles valued at £12.10 (so pretty close to £4.0.0 each). So I'd say that the rifle that Oerter made for Baer wasn't 25% to 30% more valuable than the ordinary rifle but closer to 40% or 45% more expensive. Nitpicky, fine--but it only serves to emphasize your point that such high-end rifles were extraordinary.

Bob: You're right, none of the folks in the room were gun collectors or researchers. They were interested in the contradiction between Moravian "pacifism" (a word I prefer not to use, as it isn't right) and the church's willingness to supply weapons of war--and that laws were passed to allow arms to be taken from peaceful citizens. One question asked whether a high-end rifle like the Oerter/Baer rifle wouldn't have been used by an officer, rather than an ordinary soldier. Impossible to know, of course. Seems like a fair point--although officers would be more likely to have their own arms and so not need one. But they could have passed on their own weapon to a common soldier and kept the fancy longrifle that Oerter made.

It also occurred to me, while working on this, that we've been asking why did Oerter start signing his barrels in 1774--but we have never asked (or at least I've not seen it asked) why he stopped in 1775. Why are there no rifles signed "Chris. Oerter Chris. Spring 1776" or "Chris. Oerter Chris. Spring 1777"? (I don't think sickness explains it.) I think this discussion helps answer that question: in October 1775, this newly discovered letter from Lewis Gordon shows, the county demanded that the Christiansbrunn shop begin making muskets. I would propose that Oerter's fancy rifle-making stopped at that point and that by late 1775 until his death he was fully occupied in trying to satisfy the county quota. My speculation, of course. 

Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2021, 01:14:14 AM »
And, I should have said: thanks so much for taking the time to watch.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline WESTbury

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 02:12:18 AM »
Scott,

I'm looking forward, with great anticipation, to reading your longer article. As I am a native of Pa. via Pittsburgh, and a Rev War buff (nut), these topics fascinate me.

I lived for many years in New England, but after Bennington, not much happened there. Of course, Arnold did trash much of the coast line of Connecticut and Rhode Island. However his efforts were not of much consequence to the British war effort.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2021, 02:25:59 AM »
I'm looking forward, with great anticipation, to reading your longer article. As I am a native of Pa. via Pittsburgh, and a Rev War buff (nut), these topics fascinate me.

Thanks. It'll be a bit. I had hoped to have a draft by the end of the summer but that was way too ambitious. The challenge I set for myself was to tell the story of how Pennsylvania armed itself by means of this very focused attention to the movements of the Oerter/Baer rifle. Keeping the very large story from hijacking the very small one is difficult!
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline smart dog

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 03:05:56 AM »
Hi Scott,
Great presentation and it raises some questions.  You discuss issuing rifles and the impression is they were issued in the same way and purpose as muskets.   They had very different strengths and weaknesses and few rifles would be able to mount bayonets.  You mentioned the marking of guns on the wrist plates, a practice used for muskets that typically had wrist plates but that was not often the case for rifles. As a line or battalion infantryman, a rifle would have been a disadvantage unless it was use an issued rifle or nothing. Of course that might have been the case at the time.  However, I wonder if rifles collected were issued indiscriminately or were they put aside for special rifle units.  A special rifle like Oerter's may also have ended up with a "special" person in some unit.   Finally, a 4 pound 15 shilling rifle probably was not a "barn gun" particularly at a time when 50 pounds could support a family for a year.  It probably had a patch box and some simple decoration.   

dave
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2021, 03:18:10 AM »
Well done. Thanks for sharing the link.
Robert Wolfe
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Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2021, 03:35:52 AM »
You discuss issuing rifles and the impression is they were issued in the same way and purpose as muskets.   They had very different strengths and weaknesses and few rifles would be able to mount bayonets.  You mentioned the marking of guns on the wrist plates, a practice used for muskets that typically had wrist plates but that was not often the case for rifles. As a line or battalion infantryman, a rifle would have been a disadvantage unless it was use an issued rifle or nothing. Of course that might have been the case at the time.  However, I wonder if rifles collected were issued indiscriminately or were they put aside for special rifle units. A special rifle like Oerter's may also have ended up with a "special" person in some unit. 

There were special rifle companies and battalions from several counties, including Lancaster. The data about the Pennsylvania militia is so scattered and incomplete that even the best source, The Pennsylvania Line, is not helpful about most things. The few sources that mention Zantzinger's company describe it as part of the Flying Camp but it most definitely was not: it went to Perth Amboy until the Flying Camp was formed or arrived and then Z's militia company returned to Lancaster. Anyway, I assume Zantzinger's company was a rifle company, since he purchased so many rifles for his men, though there is so little documentary evidence that nothing I've found states that.

I believe the rifles stayed with the companies whose captains had purchased the rifles, at least at this moment (summer 1776). They were not gathered centrally. Rifles being repaired in Lancaster, say, were identified by the captain or colonel who was responsible for them (so, Zantzinger paid a gunsmith to repair guns he purchased, which were returned to him after they were repaired). Later other weapons were sent to a "central" repair facility (Allentown, say) and were distributed differently.

I hope that makes sense & that I am understanding your point.

Finally, a 4 pound 15 shilling rifle probably was not a "barn gun" particularly at a time when 50 pounds could support a family for a year.  It probably had a patch box and some simple decoration.   

Right, I never called the £4.15.0 rifles "barn guns"--just common rifles. Receipts survive for hundreds and hundreds of rifle purchases: they are nearly all valued at £4.15.0. So, I don't know what to conclude from that other than the rifles that common folk had and that were seized by local officials were valued at £4.15.0. My main point is that the  Oerter Baer rifle was valued at nearly double. Note that Zantzinger buys two rifles from Baer: one is the one Oerter made (£8.0.0), the other valued at £4.15.0.

I suppose it's worth mentioning this possibility: the "going value" for a rifle was £4.15.0, maybe no matter what it looked like. The only reason that Baer could insist on £8.0.0 for the Oerter rifle is because he had that letter that Oerter wrote, proving its value. (The letter, along with the rifle, was taken from Baer as proof.) Most purchasers of rifles, whatever they may have cost, would not have had receipts. Some of them might have received the £4.15.0 even though the rifle they had cost them less.

All that said: the captains appraising these rifles did make some distinctions among them. But £4.15.0 is easily and overwhelmingly the average cost.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 03:50:10 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2021, 04:03:00 AM »
Scott,

Thank you for sharing, fascinating research.  I agree your work should be gathered into a book.
Kunk

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2021, 08:05:41 PM »
Scott that is a really excellent presentation!  I tried to approach it with the perspective of someone who was not previously knowledgeable about flintlocks or rifles and muskets, and I think you did a particularly good job of explaining the story to such an attendee as well as keeping it tight and concise without the temptation to constantly branch off into the many side roads you surely were itching to visit!  I'm sure it sparked a large amount of interest among those at the presentation.

Hope you don't mind but I am constantly pilfering many of your contributions to this forum and already have a fairly substantial 'Scott Gordon' file on my macbook!

Now to figure out how to download this and save it...
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2021, 09:30:42 PM »
Now to figure out how to download this and save it...

I can't help you there! I was impressed with myself for figuring out how to record the thing--on some platform that Lehigh uses called "Panopto" that I'd never used before--and then doubly impressed with figuring out how to share it to a non-Lehigh audience. And I didn't even call the Help desk!
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Jtown

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2021, 01:58:44 AM »
As a new guy it was very educational, thank you for your work.
Walt

Offline vanu

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2021, 03:49:21 AM »
Excellent presentation Scott!

Bruce

Offline Yazel.xring

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2021, 03:37:09 PM »
Thank you so much for sharing this Scott, I'm hungry for knowledge and this is fantastic.

I'd support a book of this information as well!
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Offline eastwind

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2021, 10:01:59 PM »
Scott: An excellent lecture/presentation, and well worth all hearing. With this lecture and the past studies you have shared you have advanced the level of the ALR Forum and its educational value.
   I do have one curiosity. You mention early in your piece that Oerter signed one of his rifles in 1774, questioning his reason to do so. I may have wrongly assumed that most European immigrants knew the age old tradition of signed rifles, such as we see on the Jaegers and even cross-bows and that Oerter was only following that custom. What do you think prompted him to sign and date that first gun? Was signing and dating a general rule of the Moravian gun shop makers?

Just curious ...

Patrick Hornberger
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Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2021, 12:36:37 AM »
Patrick: Thanks very much for the kind words. I appreciate it--and the time you took to watch this!

My first "video" experiment was with a paper I gave at the Moravian history conference in May 2021 and it tackled this very mystery. It's shorter!--maybe 15 minutes?--and I hope this link still works:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w197p37f1mbx9ww/Gordon%20%7C%20Puzzle%20of%20Signatures.mp4?dl=0

The short answer to your question is: I think he started to sign them either because (a) Moravian authorities told him to, because others were passing off sub-par rifles as Moravian rifles or (b) he had some sort of contract for these 1774-1775 rifles that required him to "bar code" them, so to speak, so products could be traced back to their maker. I think when I gave that talk in May I leaned toward (b) but now I lean toward (a).

The key to the puzzle (whatever the answer is) is why he started in 1774. There was no tradition of Moravian craftsmen signing their product, except perhaps instrument makers (John Antes and David Tannenberg). If Albrecht, his master, trained in Europe, signed his rifles, none survive. (The one signed Albrecht is generally accepted to be later, post-1771 when Albrecht moved to Lititz.)

Another key point is, contrary to what has been written & repeated, nothing about Oerter's own circumstances changed between 1766 and his death in 1777. Oerter never "owned" the products he made: they were always church property, as the church owned his tools, supplied the materials, etc.; the rifles he made were considered among the church's assets, which is why they show up in those annual inventories. And Oerter continued to receive room, board, etc., exactly as everybody had done when the Moravian system was communal before 1762. (It stayed fully communal until 1771 at Christiansbrunn & Oerter opted to remain communal when he had a choice not to.) His circumstances, economic or otherwise, related to his "ownership" of his work were the same in 1774 as they had been in 1767. So ... why would he start signing stuff in 1774?

In the video, I discuss the above at some length. It doesn't result in any firm conclusion--still a mystery--but I am pretty sure that the explanations that have been offered before just don't make sense. So it's got to be something else.

Scott
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 12:52:22 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2021, 01:08:03 AM »
Let's not forget the A. Albrecht Bethlehem lock, so there is in fact an example of something signed by Albrecht prior to the Sun Inn reassignment.  1766/1767?

If others may have been passing off rifles as Moravian work prior to 1774, who might they have been?

There were not a huge number of gunstockers in NH county during that period.  Johannes Moll in Allentown, Peter Neihardt up the river near Laury's, Johannes Jung/John Young Sr. in Easton.  Maybe Abraham Berlin?  His gunstocking abilities are unknown.  At least one Leyendecker/Leidacre up above Allentown.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 02:07:02 AM by Eric Kettenburg »
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2021, 01:17:44 AM »
If others may have been passing off rifles as Moravian work prior to 1774, who might they have been?

There were not a huge number of gunstockers in NH county during that period.  Johannes Moll in Allentown, Peter Neihardt up the river near Laury's, Johannes Jung/John Young Sr. in Easton.  Maybe Abraham Berlin?  His gunstocking abilities are unknown.  At least one Leyendecker/Leidacre up above Allentown.

No reason to assume that the folks passing sub-par rifles off as Moravian-made prior to 1774 were themselves in Northampton County. Could have been anywhere--Lancaster, Berks, Philadelphia, Northampton, somewhere in New Jersey? The point is that, wherever the shoddy rifles were, they were being passed off as "Moravian" (the community at Bethlehem had a high reputation for good products of all sorts).

It is interesting, in this light, that the voucher that Zantzinger wrote up called Oerter's rifle a "Bethlehem made" rifle, even though the letter itself, which testified to the value and which Zantzinger took (which is why it survives), is written from Christiansbrunn & never mentions Bethlehem.

Nor would the shoddy-riflemakers need to be folks we now regard as fine riflemakers. They were, after all, making shoddy rifles.

As I mention in the video, this happened in 1767 regarding hats. Authorities "recommended to Thom. Fischer that he have a stamp made for his hats so that other people, as has often happened up to now, cannot sell other and more poorly made hats as Bethlehem hats." I suppose the shoddy-hatmakers could have been in Northampton County but just as easily they could have been in Philadelphia, where Moravian goods were sold.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 01:40:09 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2021, 01:28:48 AM »
Let's not forget the A. Albrecht Bethlehem lock, so there is in fact an example of something signed by Albrecht prior to the Sun Inn reassignment.  1766/1767?

Yes, my "theory" (and that's all it is) doesn't say that a Moravian would have never signed anything. It just proposes a different reason for people signing things, when they did, than either "pride" in the product or because they suddenly felt that they "owned" the product (were "working for themselves," as it has been put). These reasons don't make sense, at least to me, and I've tried to explain why. The latter reason doesn't make sense because Oerter was never working for himself. The former reason doesn't make sense because we have some pretty fine rifles that aren't signed: did makers who signed some rifles not take "pride" in the ones they didn't sign but are attributed to them? (The whole business of attribution sort of discredits the "pride in product" notion: if we need to attribute these fine, handsome rifles to these accomplished makers ... why didn't they sign them?)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 01:35:50 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2021, 02:27:55 AM »
...because we have some pretty fine rifles that aren't signed...

True, but in the case of unsigned rifles, we can only *assume* that they may be Moravian pieces.  Without a signature, we don't know and are only speculating upon attribution.

Marshall's rifle (#41) has long been associated with Bethlehem/CS via tradition only, and that is not family tradition but tradition among people interested in early gunstockers.  There is no proof in any way.  #42 has initiated debate until we're all blue in the face.  #43 - now THAT at the least LOOKS like an Oerter predecessor, but again, not signed.  Then there is the lion/lamb and the two tailed dog, both of which are by some attributed to Neihart with equally valid reasoning.  Furthermore, we have ample *signed* evidence of what was being stocked out at Allentown by the Molls ca. 1790-1810 period, by the Rupps post-War, by Neihart post-War, and all of this work also can be viewed as later derivative of what Oerter was doing, so it is just as legitimate to view the earlier unsigned work in relation to Moll or Neihart at the least, Moll in particular as Johannes (elder) was Albrecht's age and he was noted as a gunsmith at least by the 1750s-1760s.

Not trying to be contrary, just yapping.  Like a stooge.  ;D

 
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2021, 03:17:15 AM »
...because we have some pretty fine rifles that aren't signed...

True, but in the case of unsigned rifles, we can only *assume* that they may be Moravian pieces.  Without a signature, we don't know and are only speculating upon attribution.

Marshall's rifle (#41) has long been associated with Bethlehem/CS via tradition only, and that is not family tradition but tradition among people interested in early gunstockers.  There is no proof in any way.  #42 has initiated debate until we're all blue in the face.  #43 - now THAT at the least LOOKS like an Oerter predecessor, but again, not signed.  Then there is the lion/lamb and the two tailed dog, both of which are by some attributed to Neihart with equally valid reasoning.  Furthermore, we have ample *signed* evidence of what was being stocked out at Allentown by the Molls ca. 1790-1810 period, by the Rupps post-War, by Neihart post-War, and all of this work also can be viewed as later derivative of what Oerter was doing, so it is just as legitimate to view the earlier unsigned work in relation to Moll or Neihart at the least, Moll in particular as Johannes (elder) was Albrecht's age and he was noted as a gunsmith at least by the 1750s-1760s.

Not trying to be contrary, just yapping.  Like a stooge.  ;D

Well, Curly ...

I guess I'm just saying that, setting aside any particular attribution, the whole practice of attributing unsigned rifles to makers who have signed other rifles depends on the fact that makers signed some of their rifles and didn't sign others. Unless one explains that chronologically--Maker A didn't sign his rifles and then at some date started to--that means that at a given time makers signed some of their rifles and didn't sign others.

The notion of "pride in his work" can't explain that: if a maker was proud of his work, or signed his work as soon as he felt he "owned" it, he would sign all of it after that date. But the practice of attribution insists that, actually, accomplished makers signed their work in some cases and in others didn't.

Hope that makes sense. Not sure I'm explaining myself very well.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2021, 03:57:41 AM »
That does make perfect sense.  We're attributing pieces based upon many assumptions.

Oerter is a particularly interesting case because not only do we have signed pieces, we have dates!  That's gold.  Unfortunately - for the present time - it's only offering us a glimpse into a 3 year window.  So did he sign pieces prior to 1774 that have not survived?  Did he sign pieces after 1776 that have not survived?  No way to know.

Just focusing upon the region under discussion, there are a few signed Neiharts and a number of Molls (although Moll 1, or 2?  Moll 3 is easier and a bit out of the earlier window upon which we're focused...). Neihart and Moll 1 were working before the War, but thus far - to my knowledge - all of their signed work is clearly post-War.  So what changed?  Theories have been bounced about for years as to signatures pre-War vs. post-War.  Some of these theories certainly do make preliminary sense in terms of authoritarian retribution.  But then we have these Oerters; he obviously did not seem to care.  Unfortunately he died so what might have been a perfect regional 'baseline' character drops off the script by time the post-War rolls around.

I really appreciate your approach to this stuff.  It's all very thought-provoking, and challenging.  That's very necessary!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

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Re: "Made in Christian's Spring: A Story of the American Revolution": video
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2021, 02:18:22 PM »
Oerter is a particularly interesting case because not only do we have signed pieces, we have dates!  That's gold.  Unfortunately - for the present time - it's only offering us a glimpse into a 3 year window.  So did he sign pieces prior to 1774 that have not survived?  Did he sign pieces after 1776 that have not survived?  No way to know.

I think all the signed & dated Oerters are from 1774 and 1775? There's not a surviving Oerter dated to 1776, is there?
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook