Is a 13/16ths barrel safe in 50 caliber?

[Paul from KY]

It is amazing how much knowledge and experience there is on this forum.  I wish I had half the skill of the the master craftsmen who post here.  After lurking here for around six months, I need some sage advice.

 I have a couple of questions regarding a 50 caliber Pedersoli Kentucky/Pennsylvania style reproduction percussion rifle I recently acquired.  It is a 1977 vintage gun that that has been well used.  It has a 13/16ths octagon barrel, which seems rather light since there are no 50 caliber 13/16 barrels on the market nowadays.  Is it prudent to shoot this rifle with patched round ball and 60 - 65 grains of 2F BP?  The bore is pretty decent.  I am open to getting a new barrel in either 36 or 45 caliber. 

My second question concerns replacing the nipple drum.  I intend to tap the barrel thread out for a TOTW drum since the original drum is in rough shape and the original thread is some funky metric size.  Should I use a 5/16th - 18 tap, or a 5/16 - 24 tap?  Which thread pattern would be stronger?   

[EC121]

The tap depends on the drum thread size.  In a 13/16" .50 you don't have much thread in the barrel wall.   Maybe it would work if you cut threads into the Pedersoli breechplug.   It went through the Italian proof house, but who knows?  Try measuring under the dovetails and see how much metal is in the barrel wall.

[Daniel Coats]

Probably ok but I wouldn't do it. Fowler barrels are much thinner than that.

[Scota4570]

If you change the drum threads be certain that all of the original threads are gone. 

You might be dealing with a metric thread that you can get taps and dies for.  I would make a drum to fit the threads

A 50 cal 13/16 barrel with the drum front of the plug is not in my comfort zone.  IF it is in the plug like CVA then OK.   

[Paul from KY]

The problem with the drum is the corroded threads that hold the nipple.  The threads on the shank of the drum and the barrel threads are okay.  The dovetails for the sights are very shallow, and the barrel lugs are soldered on the barrel, so barrel integrity is not compromised in that respect.  On the drum's shank there are only two rows of thread, and only about three to four threads in the barrel. 

The drum is set in front of the breech plug, not into it like a CVA.  My rifle has Italian black powder proofs, but who knows how stringent the proofing was 44 years ago.

Is converting this gun to flintlock a viable option?  I think DGW has the parts.

[Ky-Flinter]

Paul,

Welcome to ALR.  If the nipple threads are the problem, why not drill and tap the drum for a larger diameter nipple?

..... Is converting this gun to flintlock a viable option?  I think DGW has the parts.

If DGW has the parts, sure, why not?

-Ron

[Clark Badgett]

Where are you in Kentucky?

[ghostdncr]

My second question concerns replacing the nipple drum.  I intend to tap the barrel thread out for a TOTW drum since the original drum is in rough shape and the original thread is some funky metric size.  Should I use a 5/16th - 18 tap, or a 5/16 - 24 tap?  Which thread pattern would be stronger?

In a given size of fastener, such as your 5/16" example, the finer thread will be the stronger of the two. In determining the correct thread size for a repair/replacement drum, I'll measure the major (outside) diameter of the original drum thread and ensure the minor diameter (measurement across the bottom of the threads) of the new drum is larger. You can find all this info in The Machinery's Handbook or numerous online charts from fastener suppliers.

[Birddog6]

As to your topic question. I have owned a dozen 13/16” x .50 cal barrels & still own a rifle with same 13/16 barrel in .50 cal.  When I bought them from Don Getz the first time back ? 20 yrs ago, I asked him the same thing. He told me they proof tested it with 300 gr of FFF powder & 3 round balls over 100 times & measured the breech & out 12” from the breech after every 5 th shot & had 0 distortion. He said it made one he?? Of a bang, but he wanted to be 100% sure the barrel would hold.

As for the drum nipple threads, just tap it out for a Oversize nipple. I’d it is pretty bad, start with 2nd or 3rd oversize.
I recently restored a 1870’s O/U percussion rifle shotgun & bought the 1,2,3,4 oversize taps & on it found it took the 3rd one to give me full clean threads.
I never take a chance on nipple threads. Remember a vent blows out the side. A nipple blows out directly at your face/eye & to me there is no room for chance in this instance.

[Bob Roller]

I wouldn't give a red cent for any muzzle loader with a 13/16 50 caliber barrel no matter who makes it and a 45 would be my limit.Any barrel maker that makes such a barrel should have a big liability insurance policy because personal injury lawyers are waiting in the shadows.I can not be hired to install any kind of a drum and nipple in such a barrel.THAT is the reason special breech plugs that CAN be safely threaded are made or can be made.
It makes no difference as to how many of these are around and the one that blew up and mangled a hand was a 13/16 45 caliber not a 13/16 50 caliber.I will not knowing shoot beside such a rifle.
Bob Roller

[Paul from KY]

Clark, I live in Rineyville, about 35 miles south of Louisville.

[Clark Badgett]

Clark, I live in Rineyville, about 35 miles south of Louisville.

I live 10 miles northwest of downtown Louisville. I could look at your rifle at some point and see what is up with the threads.

[hanshi]

About all I can add to what has been posted already is that of the several .50 barrels I've owned all have been at least 7/8" to 15/16".  Even my 4 .45s are 15/16" (2) and (1) 13/16"; #4 is a "B" wgt swamped.

[Paul from KY]

I have decided to play it safe and get a barrel in either 32, 36, or 45 caliber.  I contacted the US distributor for Pedersoli guns and they are going to get back with me on availability.  Pedersoli only makes 13/16 barrels in 32 and 45 caliber.  I think the 45 caliber barrel will be my first choice, since it will be easier to clean and will weigh somewhat less than the 32.  I have a TC Seneca in 45 (also with a 13/16 barrel) and I like the way it handles.

[gunmaker]

Could be cheaper in long run to have or DIY an American Bbl installed. I've re-bbl few Pedersolis Colerains. old dog
Pedersoli prices will be high, very hi.....

[R.J.Bruce]

Pedersoli puts premium prices on anything that they consider a spare part. Wait times, if the Texas distributor for Pedersoli parts & warranty does not have what you need in stock, can be formidable.

[Dphariss]

It is amazing how much knowledge and experience there is on this forum.  I wish I had half the skill of the the master craftsmen who post here.  After lurking here for around six months, I need some sage advice.

 I have a couple of questions regarding a 50 caliber Pedersoli Kentucky/Pennsylvania style reproduction percussion rifle I recently acquired.  It is a 1977 vintage gun that that has been well used.  It has a 13/16ths octagon barrel, which seems rather light since there are no 50 caliber 13/16 barrels on the market nowadays.  Is it prudent to shoot this rifle with patched round ball and 60 - 65 grains of 2F BP?  The bore is pretty decent.  I am open to getting a new barrel in either 36 or 45 caliber. 

My second question concerns replacing the nipple drum.  I intend to tap the barrel thread out for a TOTW drum since the original drum is in rough shape and the original thread is some funky metric size.  Should I use a 5/16th - 18 tap, or a 5/16 - 24 tap?  Which thread pattern would be stronger?

I would cut it off and put a "patent" breech on the gun. The barrel is likely made of better steel than the run of the mill "custom" ML barrel in the US. So barrel strength should not be an issue. But putting a drum in a wall this thin is silly IMO plus the big hole drilled in the side of the barrel at the peak pressure point. But I detest drum and nipple setups anyway. Made as they are now from cold rolled steel they have a distressing tendency to break off at the rebate unless carefully supported by the lock plate.
Dan

[Dphariss]

I wouldn't give a red cent for any muzzle loader with a 13/16 50 caliber barrel no matter who makes it and a 45 would be my limit.Any barrel maker that makes such a barrel should have a big liability insurance policy because personal injury lawyers are waiting in the shadows.I can not be hired to install any kind of a drum and nipple in such a barrel.THAT is the reason special breech plugs that CAN be safely threaded are made or can be made.
It makes no difference as to how many of these are around and the one that blew up and mangled a hand was a 13/16 45 caliber not a 13/16 50 caliber.I will not knowing shoot beside such a rifle.
Bob Roller

ML barrel makers are protected by the "handloader defense".  So they are pretty much immune from legal problems and know it.
For those who think that proofing a 12l14 barrel means anything remember that if the bar the barrel was made from has no flaws its very unlikely to fail. Even with flaws it may not fail. But if it has flaws, and they ALL DO since there is no standard for low grade steels, its a $#@* shoot. But the barrel wall on most ML barrels is so thick that this provides a little more safety. People might look to the Remington shotgun lawsuit from some years back the the alloy used and the reason it failed in service even after being prooved by Remington.
Yeah, I know, I have heard it all over the last 50 years or so. Remember that the Springfield Rifle Musket barrels were skelp welded iron, thin walled and proved with 200 gr of Musket Powder and a 500 gr Minie spaced 2" off the powder. Its virtually impossible to blow one up from reports I read years ago when people decided to try to blow one up.
Then you have to ask: "WhY DID THEY USE IRON AND NOT STEEL"? Because at the time, 1850s/60s, "best iron" was better gun barrel material, safer, than the steels of the time. Even though many rifles were being made with "cast steel' barrels (remember ALL steel is cast to this day) The alloying process for making steel was at best primitive and laughable by modern standards but good iron was well known and reliable at the ML pressure levels.  And the higher pressure "slug guns" of the time had heavy barrels.
Dan

[Daryl]

VERY heavy barrels.
The .45 barrel I put on my wife's little Seneca rifle from the 70's is 13/16", has a patent hooked breech and is a GM barrel. The dove tails are very shallow & I have
no qualms of shooting it with any normal load. the stock is a bit short (LOL).
I also have a .40 cal. 13/16" bl. for it, but haven't gotten around to any testing with it - so far. LOL- this thread just reminded me of that rifle and "extra" barrel.

[Clark Badgett]

Remember that the Springfield Rifle Musket barrels were skelp welded iron, thin walled and proved with 200 gr of Musket Powder and a 500 gr Minie spaced 2" off the powder.
Dan

By 1855, the rifle musket barrels were no longer being made of skelp welded iron. I'm not exactly sure when the change over happened, but by the time of the rifle muskets the barrels were being roll forged from hollow bar stock on progressive rolls.

[Bob Roller]

I wouldn't give a red cent for any muzzle loader with a 13/16 50 caliber barrel no matter who makes it and a 45 would be my limit.Any barrel maker that makes such a barrel should have a big liability insurance policy because personal injury lawyers are waiting in the shadows.I can not be hired to install any kind of a drum and nipple in such a barrel.THAT is the reason special breech plugs that CAN be safely threaded are made or can be made.
It makes no difference as to how many of these are around and the one that blew up and mangled a hand was a 13/16 45 caliber not a 13/16 50 caliber.I will not knowing shoot beside such a rifle.
Bob Roller

ML barrel makers are protected by the "handloader defense".  So they are pretty much immune from legal problems and know it.
For those who think that proofing a 12l14 barrel means anything remember that if the bar the barrel was made from has no flaws its very unlikely to fail. Even with flaws it may not fail. But if it has flaws, and they ALL DO since there is no standard for low grade steels, its a $#@* shoot. But the barrel wall on most ML barrels is so thick that this provides a little more safety. People might look to the Remington shotgun lawsuit from some years back the the alloy used and the reason it failed in service even after being prooved by Remington.
Yeah, I know, I have heard it all over the last 50 years or so. Remember that the Springfield Rifle Musket barrels were skelp welded iron, thin walled and proved with 200 gr of Musket Powder and a 500 gr Minie spaced 2" off the powder. Its virtually impossible to blow one up from reports I read years ago when people decided to try to blow one up.
Then you have to ask: "WhY DID THEY USE IRON AND NOT STEEL"? Because at the time, 1850s/60s, "best iron" was better gun barrel material, safer, than the steels of the time. Even though many rifles were being made with "cast steel' barrels (remember ALL steel is cast to this day) The alloying process for making steel was at best primitive and laughable by modern standards but good iron was well known and reliable at the ML pressure levels.  And the higher pressure "slug guns" of the time had heavy barrels.
Dan

I want to see chapter and verse about any state or Federal code that protects anyone who would make such a barrel.I know that a liabilty insurance protected Douglas after that tragic failure of a normally safe barrel but just how many barrel makers roday have such a policy? Hand loading center fire ammunition is another rhing altogether and I still do it but NOT for anyone else.
Bob Roller

[Keith Zimmerman]

Have Bobby sleeve it into a smaller calibre.

[Paul from KY]

Is sleeving the bore to 36 caliber feasible?

 I got a price for a replacement barrel from Pedersoli, and it was $400 for either a 32 or 36 caliber barrel, plus shipping and tax.  Since the barrel will come from Italy, I suspect a very long wait...

I have shopped around for a 36 caliber 36 inch long barrel on the internet.  What's up with venders having very limited barrel inventory?  It seems that almost everything is out of stock.

[Bob Roller]

Going into farce for a moment.a 50 caliber barrel this thin perhaps should be marketed as a floor lamp and when the lock is cocked the light comes on or is turned off.
Bob Roller

[Birddog6]

Is sleeving the bore to 36 caliber feasible?

 I got a price for a replacement barrel from Pedersoli, and it was $400 for either a 32 or 36 caliber barrel,
plus shipping and tax.  Since the barrel will come from Italy, I suspect a very long wait...

I have shopped around for a 36 caliber 36 inch long barrel on the internet.  What's up with venders having
very limited barrel inventory?  It seems that almost everything is out of stock.

Have you seen the price of Steel ?  It has doubled this year.  That is why barrel makers are not buying any
steel & making barrels, they are selling what they have HOPING the prices will come down.

Just wait til this time next year.  These barrels you are buying new for $300. will be Allot more. If steel prices
don't drop dramatically,  I think a $300 barrel is gonna cost $500. and it will kill the ML building for most guys.
Lock prices & trigger prices will jump, everything metal will take a Big jump.  ML parts are not isolated from
steel prices, they Will go up.