UPDATE - Rcvd Signed rifle I cannot ID - help with initials?

[AZshot]

I went ahead and bought this, coming soon, because of some of it's unusual features.  It has a Holston type cheek rest.  The wood I believe is walnut.  It has a converted flintlock (thanks to those that helped me learn how to tell).  It has a 46" barrel.  But the initials or stamp is not recognized by me.  The trigger guard also is very unusual.  I can't tell if it's blackened brass, or iron.  I'll post better pics when it comes.
But does anyone recognize this maker, or region even?  Thanks.

[AZshot]

I also like the old American lock.  That helped convince me to buy it.  The trigger guard and cheekpiece remind me of J. M. Wood rifles, but not close enough to say it is.  I found this, I think is the same lockmaker:
ROGERS, John — Philadelphia, Pa., ironmonger listed (with Charles Rogers) in the City Directories at 7 N. 2nd Street, in 1809, and at 52 High Street, from 1810 to 1824. Then Rogers Brothers & Co., are listed at 52 High Street, until 1846. John Rogers (sometimes also spelled Rodgers) bought the Valley Forge in 1814. On March 21, 1821, in association with Brooke Evans of 120 High St., Philadelphia, Rogers took over the refunct contract of Alexander McRae of Richmond, Va., of July 28, 1817, for 10,000 muskets at $12.75 per stand. Brooke Evans remodelled the old forge and iron works into a gun factory, and by Dec. 31, 1823, John Rogers and Brooke Evans are recorded to have delivered 5,730 muskets on the contract. On Jan. 1, 1825, John Rogers (alone) contracted for 5,000 Model 1816 muskets at $12.25 per stand, to be delivered at the rate of 1,000 per annum. This contract was probably shared with Wm. L. Evans, a practical gun-maker who managed the Evansburg arms works.

[Avlrc]

Ok, do u think it is J. M. F?   Or is is J. Mc.F ?  ( Mcfadden, Mcfarland, McFall etc.....) , Like James Mcfadden from Ohio.

How about  James M Farnum, from IL.   trigger guard looks like something from IL.  Just wild guessing 4 sure 

I wonder it these old makers are sitting up there  at the big gunshop in the sky laughing  at us now, trying to figure  out who made thse old pieces.

Goog luck in your search,

[JTR]

To me looks like J. Mc. Pn
And of those initials, I'm clueless.

[Daryl]

That is what I see as well, JTR.
The high, capital N is very interesting.

[AZshot]

Thanks for trying.  What about the look of the rifle?  Can we settle on region?

[Avlrc]

I kind of think the triggerguard is Midwestern.   Ohio, IL, IN

[AZshot]

Thanks.  Did they use the Holsten River cheekpiece?  Also, did they use iron fittings, vs brass? Won't know til I get the rifle, but I think it's all iron.  That's the only reason I was hoping it was a NC rifle, the walnut and iron.  Searching for trigger guards like these the past day, I just can't find any iron like them.  But several NC that are brass like it. 

[Molly]

A well informed collector tells me the "Holston River" cheek piece is a stylistic feature more associated with a general time period rather than a specific geographic area.  I have at least two signed Virginia rifles with a similar feature often called the beaver tail.  Neither were made near the Holston River.  Nice old rifle however.

[rich pierce]

The architecture of the top of the wrist and the nose of the comb are the distinctives that are likely to reveal the origin of this one, in my view.

[AZshot]

Thanks Rich, I look forward to getting it and I'll post better pictures and answer questions.  Hoping to see 2-3 screws in a somewhat long tang, but who knows.

Molly, I think I've also seen these cheek pieces "around", so that's probably correct.  It's not like word didn't get around or people didn't travel and discuss new ideas.  It's how ideas spread.  I bet you could find a blossoming (rasping?) or these bigger cheek pieces starting in one year, and going into modern times.  Lots of Gemmer Hawkens and early Sharps had this, if I recall.  The idea probably started 20 years prior.

[Avlrc]

That odd looking comb is on some IL rifles & they used long cheek rest some, maybe not exactly yours but close.   That trigger  guard is on a lot of IL rifles but might just be a late  guard & is on a lot of late guns all over.   I have or had it on a couple late WV rifles.

Barrel seems  long for IL. 
 

The stock profile on your rifle to me does not look like  the profile on the last three photos you posted.   Could be the angle of shots.

Once someone identifys the area, you can start working on the signature.  Will be  lot easier to match letters to makers names.

[mr. no gold]

Some of us who were in the 'Olde Army' refer to the rounded cheek rest as a 'Monte Carlo' design. That was back in the 1950s or so. Nice rifle(s) and in good condition. Thank you for letting us have a look!
Dick

[Clowdis]

To me the initials look a lot like J. M.cFn which would seem to me to indicate a J. McFarland or McFarling. 

[AZshot]

Are those known gunsmiths?  Or are you just extrapolating possibilities.
 

[Avlrc]

James McFadden 1822-1880 , Portage , Wood Counnty Ohio

Listed as a gunsmith in a 1859 Portage directory

looks like an Ohio rifle.

Ask smokinbuck he might know

[AZshot]

Thanks for the clues!  I'll get better pics when it comes.  Did they use walnut and iron and no patchbox in OH?  I'm sure plain rifles were always made for the poor users.  But iron?

[Clowdis]

Are those known gunsmiths?  Or are you just extrapolating possibilities.

Just guessing at possibilities for the stamping.

[smokinbuck]

Afraid I'm not having much luck. From the profile, triggers and general architecture I don't think its an Ohio. Looking closely at the initials the last one might be a P. I've checked my Ohio and general directory books and find nothing. The lock maker I found, like yourself, in Philadelphia indicates they only made "flint locks" and was not Rogers And Brothers but Just Rogers Brothers. There were a lot of gun makers who just did a few and never became known makers, this may be one of them or he may be from other than the midwest. The lock is most likely a hardware store lock and could have been shipped anywhere. Sorry I can't be of any help.
Mark / smokinbuck

[AZshot]

Thanks for taking the time to look and help. 
I agree the lock was purchased from somewhere to put in the rifle. My premise is since it's a converted flintlock, it was American.  But I don't know if a British lock company would sell a converted flintlock, with a current American maker making them too?  At first, I was only finding Rogers Bros made pistols and the US Gov contract rifles.  There are a couple of Rogers, but all in the same place in PA making locks/guns in the same period.  The company with through changes and buyouts, I think that accounts for the slight differences in the below.  I have found a few of their locks in other long rifles though, both in flint, and percussion. 

[JV Puleo]

I think that all of those are conventional Birmingham export locks. Making them with the name of an American dealer on them was the norm and "Warranted" under the name is a strong identifier of B'ham export work.

[AZshot]

There was a John Rogers, and a Rogers Brothers, and Rogers & Bros in Philadelphia, and they did make locks and flintlock pistols.  IT's a little confusing if they were all the same company, but they were often listed with the same PA address.  They were not "dealers", they were a gun manufacturing company, related to several famous forges, and contracted to make muzzle loaders for the American Government.
There is one in the Smithsonian is listed as made in the United States: Pennsylvania, Valley Forge:
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_438604

There is a known history of that company being American and making guns and flintlocks.  The one on mine is converted from flintlock.

[AZshot]

Ok, I got the rifle.  Happy to see a long tang.  Kind of unusual without a distinct dolls head.  I wish somebody had not cleaned the patina off the stock so vigorously.  The places and cracks where they didn't look very dark and nice.  But the tang at least looks Appalachian to me:

[AZshot]

All the furnishings are iron, looks forged.  The only silver is the front sight blade. Here is that strange trigger guard.  Does have a ridge through the middle of the bow.





I cannot figure out the type of wood.  Light like maple, but more grain.  Grain doesn't have the dark, deep dents of each speckle.  Could the wood be something else?  Chestnut perhaps?

[Dennis Glazener]

Love the double pinned thimbles. Wild guess  eastern WV area.
Dennis