How to make a bench copy?

[Daniel Coats]

I've been considering this for years. Making a close copy costs money, how accurate do you want to spend might be the real question.

Thoughts please!

[jmf]

Id think time could be substituted for money in some cases.

[rich pierce]

I've been considering this for years. Making a close copy costs money, how accurate do you want to spend might be the real question.

Thoughts please!

Some close copies are going to be easier. Like if you’re making a close copy of a Dickert. The castings will be available.

[Dave B]

As your title says Bench Copy is when you have the real deal on your bench while you make the copy. It is the only way to be exacting and yes expensive. I know that some of the patterns for butt plates and trigger guards are made from originals but It seems to me that you need to make your castings from the one infront of you. You must accept that your brass is going to shrink a bit in that process. Getting the barrel dimensions correct can be a challenge depending on who is going to make your barrel. Most of us have to settle for the "sort of copy " because what is redley available. Check out the build done by Jud Brennan on the Edward Marshall rifle. Cool beans but even Jud compromized on his choice of butt plate it seems.

[Nordnecker]

I made a bench copy of a Simon Lauck Fowler/ smooth bore a few years ago. I sent the barrel specks to Charlie Burton and he pretty much nailed it. I had to cobble together the castings for the TG and BP and Mike Brooks had them cast. It wasn’t really any more expensive than any other build for me. It did take a little more time overall but it was worth it.

[smart dog]

Hi Dan,
I've made quite close copies of original guns both civilian and military.  I've never made a "bench" copy simply because I've never had the original gun on my bench during the project to copy as I go.  I've closely examined, photographed, and measured originals but they were never on my bench when making the gun.  So I was always working from notes, sketches, photos and memory.  The process can be time consuming in the extreme, even the military guns that have complete sets of parts available.  I always found I needed to modify those parts to get as close to an original example as I could.  However, every project was a compromise in some respect because of the components that could be bought or reasonably made, and not having the original model in my hands as I worked.  That said, every one was worth the effort when I consider the knowledge and skills acquired before a project started and during the process.  Making a close copy trains your eyes to "see" not just look and your hands to execute what your mind "sees". 
dave   

[Daniel Coats]

All great responses so far thank you!

I'm thinking I'll need to make a scale drawing first rather than layout on the stock. The drawing should slow me down to take accurate measurements that I can transfer to paper. Compromise is what I'm worried about, every rifle I've ever built ended up changing somewhat during the build.

See and not just look is a great statement! I think also to feel with your hands what you might not notice with your eye rings true to me as well.

Assuming a drawing is made how do you transfer that accurately to the stock blank?

[Bob Roller]

First thing would be to have a bench.Then some compatible tools and materials to start with.Have an old gun to copy would help as well.Almost anyone,even me can make a gun.Rifles are made by craftsmen,some with long years of practice.Being critical of the work of others when they do their best is no way to win friends unless these makers ASK for a critique.The few rifles i made are represntative of American half stock caplocks and were solid and useful to their owners and may still be.I did try and succeeded in surpassing the locks found on most American caplocks and some flintlocks by trying to copy proven English styles of mechanisms and close tolerances and quality materials helped as well.Do the best you can with what is available to you and don't worry about perfection,it ain't available.No stress,strain or blood pressure excursions is needed.
Bob Roller

[elkhorne]

Bob, Smartdog & others,
All good wisdom and guidance! I am planning one of these “bench copies” of an original I own. I have measured everything I think I possibly can on that rifle but just how close can I actually come is the big question. I’ve measured and matched very closely the buttplate and triggerguard and plan to detail the shape to match the original as close as possible. Backing up, I did several profile tracings of the rifle using a “Hershel” pencil and next I plan to do an actual scale drawing of the rifle I want to build. My barrel is a Rice that is very close and right on the caliber. The only dilemma I have is the original barrel only had the flats filed where they are seen and about 6” or so to the muzzle and the rest is still round. My question is do I file the flats of my new barrel to match the rounded portions of the new barrel or leave them? If I do file below the breach are forward to 6” or so of the muzzle, will I affect the accuracy of the barrel? The barrel is almost the same dimensions as the original except it is about an inch longer. I do not think I would gain anything if I cut that small amount of but is that what a purist bench builder would do? Finally my first goal is to do my scale drawing with the barrel I have and components I have on the copied profile of the original. Any thoughts, ideas or guidance? Thanks and good luck Daniel.
elkhorne

[Bob Roller]

Elkhorne,
That much filing makes me tired just to think about doing it and I have some good files. IF you choose to file that much off an octagon barrel get a Vixen or auto body shop file with semi circular "teeth" and a good handle.
If the barrel is 12L14 that kind of file will eat it alive.
Bob Roller

[Daniel Coats]

Elkhorne,
That much filing makes me tired just to think about doing it and I have some good files. IF you choose to file that much off an octagon barrel get a Vixen or auto body shop file with semi circular "teeth" and a good handle.
If the barrel is 12L14 that kind of file will eat it alive.
Bob Roller

I did that once which was clearly enough. Started with a straight GRRW barrel and used a auto body shop file with circular teeth without a handle. I worked the barrel down into a tapered octagon to round trade gun barrel and had a large mason jar full of filings when I was done. Never again but that was all I had to work with and I was church mouse poor at the time. I made the rest of that trade gun by hand but foolishly sold it many years ago.

Thanks for the memory refresher Bob! 

[smart dog]

Hi Elkhorne,

I likely would not file the bottom of the barrel round.  The reason it was so on the original probably was because the round bottom was easier to inlet and maybe cheaper to make.   I would have no qualms about cutting off an inch at the muzzle to make the length match the original but I have a lot of experience truing up and crowning muzzles.  If that task makes you nervous then an extra inch of barrel is not likely to change the appearance of the gun relative to the original.

I am not a "purist".  My reasons for making close copies of any guns is less about having a copy of an original and more about taking a deep dive into the mind, methods, and materials employed by the original maker. I don't have to copy every detail to achieve those ends.  I am much more about thinking and learning than things and owning.
 
dave

[rich pierce]

For sure, one can get as deep into a bench copy as one wishes.
Would you look for wood with near identical curl or figure?
Would you reproduce dings and scratches exactly?
If it was converted to percussion then reconverted would you make it flint,,then put in a drum and nipple and convert the lock, then reconvert to flint?

All this sounds facetious but these are decisions to make. I’d start with a mission statement for the project.

This could be, “to create a longrifle with the same architecture, carving, dimensions, furniture, construction details, small parts, and so on with a lock and barrel closely resembling the original gun.”

Another approach is to not do a bench copy but “the next one that maker made after gun X.”  This allows differences in barrel, lock, small details. It requires similar study and dedication. For example, making not just a “Dickert” but “a Dickert like RCA 48.”

[Bob Roller]

Elkhorne,
That much filing makes me tired just to think about doing it and I have some good files. IF you choose to file that much off an octagon barrel get a Vixen or auto body shop file with semi circular "teeth" and a good handle.
If the barrel is 12L14 that kind of file will eat it alive.
Bob Roller

I did that once which was clearly enough. Started with a straight GRRW barrel and used a auto body shop file with circular teeth without a handle. I worked the barrel down into a tapered octagon to round trade gun barrel and had a large mason jar full of filings when I was done. Never again but that was all I had to work with and I was church mouse poor at the time. I made the rest of that trade gun by hand but foolishly sold it many years ago.

Thanks for the memory refresher Bob! 

Dan,
You manufactured shavings and  that barrel was a by product,When I was a teenager I filed a barrel octagon but it was for a pistol.My old friend Marshal Ralph Hooker filed a rifle barrel from round to octagon that was 4 feet long and he also said,"Never again". I remember W.G.Sutter telling me that he made lock tumblers from torsion bars found on some Chryslers and Packard cars of the mid 1950's.I can go on with this but will stop for now.
Bob Roller

[elkhorne]

Dan, Dave, Rich and Bob,
Really didn’t take 4 of you guys to twist my arm to NOT try to round the bottom of the barrel! Sort of like Del Web said in Jeremiah Johnson - Mother Web didn’t raise such a foolish boy! (Or something close to that.) as far as shortening the barrel, that may not be quite as big a problem as the diameter about an inch back almost matches the original. Also the original has quite a lot of drop but shoulders nicely so I plan on duplicating that. I like the idea of building a history story around the rifle. Rich, you nailed it in that this could be the next one that the maker was working on so the similarities would be very close sine the original was still in his mind! Great idea. That way, I could try to closely copy enough of his carving style and engraving style so there would be no mistake who made the rifle. That releases the current builder of having to be absolutely exact as someone would expect in a bench copy. Thanks for the ideas!
elkhorne