Author Topic: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing  (Read 1493 times)

Offline Gaeckle

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41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« on: November 12, 2021, 04:49:17 AM »
So I found out that the cast pipe tomahawk head I am engraving is either 41-40 or 61-50. I have cut a simple engraving on one side and now I want to do the other side. How do I anneal this? Trying to complete this for my son before I go into the hospital for surgery. Like to get it done for Christmas.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2021, 05:08:26 AM »
If you engraved one side in it's present state, you should be able to do the other side.
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Offline Gaeckle

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2021, 05:29:30 AM »
If you engraved one side in it's present state, you should be able to do the other side.

Yes, however, I'd cut a line and it wouldn't be to far and the tip was gone. I had to resharpen all my gravers and I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 15. I just want to be more efficient

Offline Carl Young

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2021, 06:03:42 AM »
Not knowing what equipment you may have, I would build a wood or charcoal fire and put the 'hawk head in and slowly build up the fire until I got the steel to a dull red heat, then let the fire die with the head in the ashes so that it cools slowly. If you need more heat you can use a vacuum cleaner to blow air into the fire.

Here is a website that may answer some of your questions. https://makeitfrommetal.com/beginners-guide-on-how-to-anneal-steel/

Carl
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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2021, 04:24:02 PM »
You do need to find out the steel alloy. They have different annealing temps. Both involve a slow cool down though.
Psalms 144

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2021, 05:26:26 PM »
I have no way of knowing as there are no indicators. It's a guess as to which one it is. I think I will engrave it the way it is

Offline davec2

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2021, 08:07:07 PM »
Gaeckle,

Do the fire trick suggested by Carl.  I have done that many, many times on all sorts of alloys and it works fine.  I just build a pile of BBQ charcoal briquets over the part to be annealed, light it, and come back tomorrow.  Done.  The casting will be much easier to engrave.

Dave Crisalli
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2021, 01:03:32 AM »
Gaeckle,

Do the fire trick suggested by Carl.  I have done that many, many times on all sorts of alloys and it works fine.  I just build a pile of BBQ charcoal briquets over the part to be annealed, light it, and come back tomorrow.  Done.  The casting will be much easier to engrave.

Dave Crisalli

That sounds doable, thanks

Offline kutter

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2021, 06:29:31 PM »
After you anneal by fire,the part will emerge from the ashes with heat scale on the surface (more than likely).
It's just the result of taking it to that temp with the oxygen in the air being able to get at it at the same time.

That gray/blue metalic coating of heat scale is hard and must be removed before engraving.
The easiest way I've found is to mix Muriatic Acid & Water in a soln and let the part soak in it.
That will loosen the scale and much of it will easily come off by itself in the soaking. What's left clinging to the part can be easily scrubbed off with a piece of scotchbrite or a fine wire wheel.

The soln needs only be 2 tbs acid to a gallon of water.
Even 1 tbs of acid /per gallon of water works.
It just works slower that's all.

It works slow and that is good as it won't etch the steel surface though it will come out a dull grey appearance.
That dull look quickly shines back up with a minimum effort of polishing with the scotchbrite, wirewheel or even steelwool.

The part(s) may have to be in the soln for an hour and even more to remove the heat scale. Usually more from my experience. I don't rush the process.
..and use it at room temp,,don't be tempted to warm or otherwise heat the soln or the part(s) to quicken the removal of the scale.
You will only encourage the acid to etch the steel that way.
Slow and cold is good.
Wash with soap and rinse after removing the part(s) from the soln for the last time.
Don't get any soap in the soln if you are going to put the part(s) back in,,as the alkali content of the soap will neutralize the acid in it.

You may want to re-cut the first side of the part you already did.
Being hard and tough when you orig cut it, the overall look  between that first cut and that of the second side done to a (hopefully) annealed softer surface will likely be quite obvious.

Offline davec2

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2021, 12:21:36 PM »
 Gaeckle,

To completely avoid the heat scale, get some of this.....

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/heat-treating-accessories/anti-scale-coating-sku100002607-23076-49084.aspx

I use it all the time for protecting frizzens (and other parts) that I have engraved from heat scale when I re-heat treat.  Just paint it on. Let it dry.  Then anneal the casting. Much easier than cleaning off the heat scale and it will protect your existing engraving.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2021, 03:21:23 PM »
My son had a small bonfire with some friends on Friday, so in went the axe head. It is scaled so I will try the acid trick.

Online bob in the woods

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2021, 04:32:59 PM »
Re preventing scale.   I have coated small parts with a paste of baking soda and water , before putting them in the fire and that seemed to work pretty well.

Offline heinz

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2021, 09:40:54 PM »
John, I descale my forged blades in straight vinegar.  I let t it sit a day or two and then brush to clean.  This also give you some awesome vinegaroon as a by-product
kind regards, heinz

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2021, 12:11:44 AM »
John, I descale my forged blades in straight vinegar.  I let t it sit a day or two and then brush to clean.  This also give you some awesome vinegaroon as a by-product

I have some cleaning vinegar, I'll try that, thanks Heinz

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2021, 06:10:26 AM »
So I found out that the cast pipe tomahawk head I am engraving is either 41-40 or 61-50. I have cut a simple engraving on one side and now I want to do the other side. How do I anneal this? Trying to complete this for my son before I go into the hospital for surgery. Like to get it done for Christmas.

Heat past blue to grey color and see if that helps cool very slowly. If not heat it to high cherry and put it in a bucket of wood ash overnight. 4140 is a moly steel and tolerates high temps pretty well. The 6150 is likely a modern spring steel and may be air hardening. Not going to look it up. But the ash bucket trick should do for either. If the heating to grey (just short of starting the show some red heat then ash bucket.
If you can find Lynton McKenzie's "Beginning Engraving" video he talks hard steel knives, heat treated modern firearms and such and of being a tool sharpener who does a little engraving on the side. If you are using carbon steel as McKenzie says "you might as well be using a toothpick". You need something like Mo-Max Cobalt.  Or at least high speed steel.

Dan
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Offline Gaeckle

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Re: 41-40 or 61-50 annealing
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2021, 04:34:53 PM »
I put the ax head in a bonfire on Friday night and retrieved it the next morning and it was scaled up. I need to clean it up and see if the fire trick did the job