Author Topic: Johannes / John Rupp of Macungie  (Read 22232 times)

Offline spgordon

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2021, 10:34:51 PM »
If anyone has a copy of Mr. Kolar's 2017 Muzzle Blasts article that Sotheby's is relying so heavily upon, I'd love to get a look at it.  I'm sure all of the period documentation I'm missing will lie therein.

Just sent it to you via email. Glad I'm not nearby to hear the screams.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 10:52:32 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2021, 11:56:01 PM »


Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #102 on: December 16, 2021, 01:09:29 AM »


Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #103 on: December 16, 2021, 08:42:57 PM »
Estate of "Peter Neyhardt," inventory taken October 13, 1813 - one of the 'book accounts' due is of "John Rupp."  Which John Rupp I wonder?  John the elder may have still been alive (thus far, I can only say he died between 1810 and 1816) and John the younger would have been either 22 or 24 depending upon whether his father was George Jr. or Andrew.  Can't say which one it was at the present time.





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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2021, 07:40:11 PM »
Just found another church reference to Johannes / John Rupp.  This is in the records of the Jerusalem Lutheran and Reformed of Western Salisbury, transcribed by Ray Haas in 1911:

"Johannas Klotz, son of Ludwig Klotz and w. Magdelena, born January 21, 1792.  Baptized May 25, 1792.  Sponsors Johannas Rupp and Magdelena Klotzin."

What I am finding most interesting is - thus far - I have quite a few references to him acting as sponsor, but I have yet to find any notations in any of these church records to him and wife having their own child/children baptized, or a marriage record.  As per the census record by 1800, he appears to have had two children by that point, and he was in Macungie, so I would assume that he wasn't traveling far for church needs and often the preachers were running circuits to various homes as needed.  All of his sponsoring was done within a reasonable radius of 'Ruppsville.'

Still searching.

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2021, 03:35:46 AM »
Still trying to figure out where - specifically - all of the birth dates for the Rupp children, as well as the birth dates for George Rupp and wife Ursula, originated.

Here's an interesting quote from a scholar who actually was researching many of these primary immigrants via German church records:

Another reason that an emigrant from this region is not included in this volume is that records were simply not found.  An example may be found in the family of an immigrant named George Rupp who is identified in Charles Roberts et al., History of Lehigh County, Pennsylvania, Vol. III:  1106.  The article states that he was born in Wimmerau in Lower Alsace on 11 Aug. 1721, son of Ulrich Rupp and Margaret Holtz.  This place appeared likely to be Wimmenau, and the records there were searched for the family.  The church book in Wimmenau starts in 1724, too late to locate a birth that occurred in 1721; however, it is likely that the immigrant was from this village since an Ulrich Rupp was located in the burial records at Wimmenau, died 29 Aug. 1727, aged 50 years.  Other Rupps appear in the Wimmenau KB, but no mention of George Rupp could be found there.” (Burgert, pg. xiv)

Burgert, Annette Kunselman.  Eighteenth Century Emigrants from the Northern Alsace to America.  Camden:  Picton Press, 1992.
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Offline Jim Spray

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2021, 06:19:06 PM »
Lots of info on Wikitree for the Rupp family. Ulrich Rupp is on there.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2021, 08:26:33 PM »
It certainly is, Jim.  However, the problem with what is plastered all over the internet as well as Ancestry and other genealogical websites is that none of it - or very little of it - is documented to primary sources.  I'm not willing to accept at face value family stories, or pretty much anything Sam Dyke published (which then became the basis for many later writers and 'experts'), or the old county histories that were so popular during the late 19th and early 20th century etc. etc.  I am specifically searching for information based upon primary sources, or those who can document their information to primary sources.  Thus far, that seems to be in scarce supply.
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Offline WESTbury

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2021, 03:09:58 AM »


"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline BradBrownBess

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2021, 03:12:37 AM »
Fantastic work and I have enjoyed going back several times now to learn and reference this post. I find your phrasing:
        "...a blind rabbit hole amid a floral word-soup of conflicting, ethereal statements"
 to be absolute poetry!! Thank you for taking what can be rather sleepy research at times and going after it with personality! You should try your hand at ranting or soap-boxing more, as few have your gift for such a descriptive pen.

I seem to be one of the few that agree with you that Ancestry is to me a tangled mess - I scratch my head and struggle with it more than it generally ever returns. There is great stuff in there but sorting wheat from chaff takes a LOT of patience.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2021, 06:06:48 AM »
You should try your hand at ranting or soap-boxing more...

Surely you jest.  I'd be curious to know how some others here feel about that!!!  ;D

Seriously, thanks.  Very happy that you enjoy my attempts at writing something coherent and informative.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2021, 06:07:51 AM »





Oh dear lord.  OK, I think that one might deserve a gold star!  :P :P :P
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Offline Jim Spray

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2021, 06:20:43 AM »



According to 23 and me these 2 guys are my uncles! If you think Wiki tree is bad don't go to 23 and me.
Yes 2 gold stars ;D

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2021, 08:25:54 PM »
From a friend (I'll get back to seriousness fairly shortly):




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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2021, 09:39:38 PM »
So.  I've been going through Mr. Kolar's article of 2017, comparing and contrasting what is presented therein with the information that I have in my own research.  What I'm planning to do here is to explore his article a bit further and see if there is anywhere where a consensus may be reached, or if the planets are too far apart in opposition.  Obviously the article is copyrighted and I do not believe I can just slap it up here in one piece, but I certainly can offer quotes with credit being given since we are examining all of this in an educational and scholarly way (most of the time  ;D , see above...)

I'd like to begin with the initial photo included in the 2017 article; the caption states, "Photo of John Rupp II given by Ira Rupp, his descendant, to Ron Gabel in the 1970's."  I am in no position to know anything about Ira Rupp or his interaction with Mr. Gabel, but I immediately question the accuracy of the information relayed to Mr. Gabel.  The photo in question:





I am no expert in regard to historical photography, but my gut initially called shenanigans and I thought 'this does not look like a photo taken prior to 1848.'  John Rupp II, gunsmith of Upper Macungie, died in 1848 as I illustrated previously.  I do not have time (nor really the interest  :P ) to engage in an extensive study of the history of photography, but what I was initially able to find indicates that the process was not introduced to the US until 1839 and was quite a laborious and expensive process.  Yet, this old dude up in the backwoods of Lehigh County (and it was extremely rural at the time) is going to be able to afford let alone find a photographer within the first 9 years of it's introduction to the US?  Furthermore, while I am no expert on men's hats of the 19th century, I do not *think* that hat looks like an 1840s hat.  It does appear to be a common straw hat w/ band, somewhat ubiquitous throughout the 19th century especially during the second half of the century, but I don't believe the lower height or shaping of the crown on the hat in this photo indicates a pre-1848 date.  Of course I could be wrong but as I said, my gut is telling me this is not John Rupp II.  It may be another later Rupp, or even another later 'John' Rupp (yes there were more of the same family group) - I'm not trying to call anyone a liar, but I do believe Ira Rupp was mistaken as to which of his ancestors this man actually was.

If anyone here has knowledge or input on historical photography and/or historical men's haberdashery, would love to hear some other viewpoints.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2021, 11:24:54 PM »
So I shared this photo with two historians, one of whom used to be the director at the Lehigh County Historical Society--specifying only that it's been proposed that the individual in this photograph died in 1848.

One wrote: "That’s a tall tale. The earliest American photograph is from 1839. A portrait photo from that period would still have required an elaborate setup under good conditions to take. And the person would have needed to have been posed and held the position. This has none of the hallmarks of that." He added: "Aside from all of that, the feel of it is just all wrong. This looks more like something someone would have taken with a Brownie camera given the 'immediacy' of it. It’s just too casual to have been from that period."

The other wrote: "It doesn't look 'right' to me as an 1840s photo, either. They were much more stiffly posed. He seems too casual."

I am not an expert in "reading" early photographs, as these two are, but based on many, many early photographs that I've seen from the 1850s-1870s, this looks like none of them. The pose is all off and, as the first friend above wrote, these early photographs of people are nearly always taken in studios--which this is not. Outside in backwoods PA in the 1840s? Seems very unlikely.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 11:29:45 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2021, 12:31:59 AM »
I also received some feedback from someone with an extensive background in art and photograhy.  His opinion:

"An 1848 photo would be posed and done in a studio with different background.  This pose is way too casual looking to be that early."

Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out exactly what IS in the background.  Do I see a cane?  Is he sitting on the 'stoop' outside the front door?
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2021, 02:48:53 AM »
The more I look at this image and compare it to reputable dated images that I'm able to find online (again, just casually researching here), the more I'm convinced this is probably a 1880s or 1890s photo using the Kodak method.  If the story re: Ira Rupp and Ron Gabel is accurate to some degree, I wonder which Rupp this actually might be?  Well I'll leave that to the genealogists.  Going to move onward shortly... 
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2021, 03:43:19 AM »
So first paragraph, Mr. Kolar states, "This rifle was made during the American Revolution sometime in the early-to-mid 1770s."

I'll let that one sink in a bit and leave it at that.  Nevertheless, an awfully emphatic opener with no backing information at all.  None.  This is pure opinion.

Paragraph 3:  "This is the earliest John Rupp rifle known and, to the best of my knowledge, the earliest signed rifle made in the Lehigh Valley."

Earliest John Rupp?  Very likely, I and many would likely agree.  No proof, of course, but it certainly does seem to be an early evolution of the 'classic' Federal Lehigh style.  As to the second portion of the sentence, Christian Oerter (or should I call him John Oerter?) may have a bone to pick.  Possibly Peter Neihart also, as his 1787 rifle is *in my opinion* probably contemporaneous with this one if not a bit earlier.  Ok ok, speculative sparring, since this rifle is not dated.

Paragraph 3:  "Who the first John Rupp was is a matter of some debate."

No it's not.  George Rupp's son Johannes (and frequently referenced by the anglicized name "John" in later records) born apparently at some point in the early to mid 1760s, was the first of that name that can be documented within this family group.  Tax records, census records and church records of the period in question provide verification.  See my current research as well as all five (currently) pages of this forum topic.

Paragraph 3:  "The current article is based upon early research of Sam Dike[sic] with input from Ron Gabel and current work by Bob Smalser."

This is going to be tough because folks take things personally.  I have no idea where Sam Dyke came up with the majority of anything he published, because much of it seems to be based largely on the county histories which are completely undocumented outside of later 'family remembrances.'  At times, the county histories publish something more substantial such as a tax list, but I have found errors in the transcriptions when compared to the actual tax lists in question, and the work of Sam Dyke that I have used previously seems to maintain those same errors.  Bob Smalser many of us here may remember.  He did not seem amenable to anyone questioning his pronouncements and he likewise - judging by much of what he has subsequently published on Ancestry - seems to have relied a great deal on the county histories.  He does have some good information re: the Neihardt family that he acknowledged was based upon work by Dennis Kastens.  Kastens is an example of a primary source researcher who went directly to the German church records.  Can't fault that approach.

My point here is that I believe Mr. Kolar made an initial mistake right out of the gate by relying upon the later, second-hand work of others in entirety in order to write his article without verifying the work of said others with available primary sources.  Trust but verify!

To be continued.....



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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2021, 06:05:30 AM »
Paragraph 3:  "If you really want to get confused just look at the internet and the various Family websites.

Agreed!  Now we’re getting somewhere!  However…

Paragraph 3:  “What follows is a summary based upon the most current verifiable explanation.

$#&&!!%!!  Had me, then lost me.  How Mr. Kolar could write these two (above) sentences back-to-back is beyond me.  Why?  Because nothing he states following this sentence is verifiable at all, and no references or documentation is supplied at all.

Paragraph 4:  “Johann George Rupp was born in the village of Wimmern in Lower Alsace, Germany in 1721.

Documentation please?  There is none.  This is straight out of the county histories.  See my previous post, and my online article, incorporating the research work of Annette Burgert.  The village is determined to be Wimmenau and there are no records at all predating 1724.  There is a burial noted for Ulrich Rupp, a man often referenced as George’s father, and it seems likely that this is in fact the village of origin, but Burgert does reiterate that while other Rupp records are found there, there is nothing to reference George Rupp at all.  Nothing.

Paragraph 4:  “The Rupps were Mennonites of Swiss origin.

Documentation please?  There is no evidence of this whatsoever.  There were Rupps in the Lancaster and later Lebanon and Dauphin area that were indeed Mennonites, but there is no evidence of connection between that family group and the Macungie Rupp family group.  In fact, the frequency of Macungie Rupp infant baptisms and sponsorships (a number of which I have referenced relative to Johannes as sponsor) factually argues agains them being part of any anabaptist sect.  This is a prime example of the "Ancestry mess," whereupon many casual folks looking for their family history find a surname that matches their own, have a "light bulb" moment, and then add it to their family tree.  Then it gets repeated ad nauseum about three thousand more times and the next thing you know, 'Hey Bingo!  We were Mennonites!"  No evidence at all save on planet Ancestry.  It doesn't help that the Mennonite Rupps had at least three - and possibly more - family members named 'Johannes' across multiple generations, and furthermore, there were additional Rupps spread through Lancaster/Lebanon and further west that also do not seem in any way tied to the Macungie Rupps (no evidence for it, anyway).  This has led to the wildly divergent speculations as to 'Macungie John's' death date, as people for many years have simply been randomly using the dates on gravestones in alternately either Lancaster (Roop cemetery in Leola), Harrisburg (Chambers UMC) or York (Canadochly).

Paragraph 4:  “Various European references show that Johann George Rupp had at least four ancestors who were gunsmiths starting as early as the 1500s.

Documentation please?  There is no evidence of this whatsoever.  The earliest reference to this belief that I’ve found is incorporated into a 1931 newspaper article from Reading offering a fluffy write-up of a Rupp family reunion.  Possibly Dennis Kastens may have come across something offering insight into this matter, but I have yet to find documentation of it in his works.  Also, there is absolutely no documentation of George Rupp having the vornamen “Johann” or some variant of this; it’s straight out of the county histories.  He very well may have had that name at his baptism, but as I’ve already illustrated, there are no extant records of his baptism to be found in Germany.  No American record utilizes the name “Johann George” or “John George.”  He is always referenced simply as George Rupp.  The only reference to a “J. George Rup” was actually in reference to his son George Jr., from 1791, which I document in my research relative to the records of the Jordan Reformed congregation.  George Sr. may very well have been christened Johan or Johann George, but nobody save perhaps the priest at his baptism or the priest at his deathbed would have used his vornamen ‘Johann.’

To be continued…

« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 01:34:40 PM by Eric Kettenburg »
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Offline BradBrownBess

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2021, 06:25:42 AM »
I think you already got your answer on the photograph but just to add a little - An 1848 Photograph would be a Daguerreotype - that is a Brightly buffed out Silver plate with an iodine solution applied. Its developed over hot mercury fumes - invented in France in 1839 by Louis Daguerre. 1848 would be considered a pretty early one at that. These photos look like a mirror with an image magically applied hence their nicknames "Ghost in the Mirror". That photo is very late 1880s to maybe 1915 - probably around very early 1900's - the clothes are a dead give away. If that photo were made from an original Daguerreotype he would NOT be posed like that - he would be upright with a metal brace holding his head still from behind and it would be a bust shot most likely - but no way on that pose he is in in 1848. In 1848 the subject had to sit perfectly still for about 45 seconds and the lighting had to be perfect - usually done by City photographers in studios though some traveled in the later years just prior to the Civil War as technology improved. By the start of the war wet plate emulsions on glass called Ambrotypes took over, then finally tintypes by mid to late war. Around late 1870's Cabinet Cards with applied albumen emulsions became very popular though tintypes were still made up until about 1900.  I have collected and studied photography for 20+ years.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2021, 06:38:19 AM »
Thank you very much for that explanation!  I don't know enough about historical photography to make any educated statement but I knew as soon as I saw that photo that it was not meshing with the description of the individual/date.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain in detail.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes / John Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2021, 08:35:50 PM »
I revisited the county histories simply to try to give some previous writers the benefit of the doubt, hoping to see if I missed some actual references that may have been incorporated into the text or a snippet, somewhere, of actual documentation.

Alas, tis not to be.

I look through these books and their empty lies seem to pass me by.  I'm just debating with myself...
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Johannes / John Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2021, 08:43:58 PM »
I look through these books and their empty lies seem to pass me by.  I'm just debating with myself...

I feel that I’ve seen a music video in MTV’s early years with these lyrics.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Johannes / John Rupp of Macungie
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2021, 08:56:14 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D
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