Johannes / John Rupp of Macungie

[Eric Kettenburg]

I have only seen this rifle published in Kentucky Rifles and Pistols, 1750-1850 and also the old 'sideways' York exhibit book in color, both @ 1976 I believe.  So it was at the time in Bill Guthman's collection but I have no idea where it is now.  I'm quite surprised it wasn't included on the KRA 'Lehigh' disc but I do understand the logistics of getting pieces all in once place for photography.

I strongly suspect this is another unsigned Johannes Rupp rifle, although I make this statement with the caveat that I can only go by these older photos which are not as detailed as I'd like, and also, it's one that I have not been able to actually examine in-person.  Nevertheless, what I can see leads me to this tentative attribution.

I guess I'm asking if anyone has better photos, or knows where it currently resides.  I would love to see more detail on this one because I have a pretty strong gut feel that it's John Rupp.  I definitely do not think it's Neihart, again just based upon what i can make out when enlarging the photos as best I can.

From Kentucky Rifles and Pistols, 1750-1850 published by James R. Johnston and the KRA, 1976:

[Eric Kettenburg]

BTW I want to engage in one more niggle.  Mr. Kolar states in his 2017 article that the buttplate is two inches wide.

The butt is not 2" wide, unless you are rounding up in large increments.  I did actually measure it when I was able to examine the rifle a number of years ago and my notes are reminding me that it measured 1.863, which I believe translates to @ 1 7/8".

Perchance my micrometer is not optimistic enough, or was simply not aware of what was required.    

[Tom Currie]

Carving on the wood patch box lid is much like the patchbox engraving on the Herman Rupp 1793 rifle RCA 57.  Only place I've seen that before.

[Tom Currie]

I think I read someone mentioned that maybe this was Herman Rupps self portrait   

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yep, that box is carved up just like the H Rupp box engraving.  I haven't seen the gun first-hand but was told a number of years ago that the lid may be a replacement, so I'm unfortunately not putting much stock in the similarity, but I'd rather see something first-hand before ruling things out.  What I'd really like to examine are clear details of the carving on the stock.  I'm actually somewhat surprised that there haven't been more photos taken of this one since the mid 1970s, or at least, none published of which I'm aware.

Anyone seen it published anywhere else?

[Eric Kettenburg]

VP was kind enough to remind me of the KRA Wes White CD, and it appears that there is another rifle somewhere extremely similar to the above which also is of interest relative to John Rupp.  Some more details are present in Wes White's photos and drawings which (for me, anyway) clinch it.  The 'sister rifle' also seems to make use of a wood box lid with more wear but similar decorative detail to the 1750-1850 book rifle, so if that lid is a replacement as I was told, whoever made it was aware of the other rifle. 

More detail of the 1750-1850 book rifle:





And detail of the sister rifle also on the same CD:





These two rifles clearly seem to have been made by the same man.  Looking at the 2nd rifle, the liberty head sketch clearly displays the same punched circles and overall form and design of the other pieces we've discussed in the other John Rupp thread here:  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69385.0.  The increased detail of the cheek carving on the 1750-1850 rifle illustrates the very long string of small gouge cuts also discussed and additionally the photos and sketches illustrate the same small punched circles in a number of locations all over that rifle.  Furthermore, the carved design that carries over from the cheek side to the lock side and down in front of the boxes is the same design as is carved on the Kindig/Sotheby's rifle, the Poulin's rifle and the unsigned 'side-opener.'  Both of these rifles pictured on the Wes White CD also carry the longer, lower cheek that John Rupp apparently seemed to favor, and both as per the other three rifles are sans any cheek inlay at all.

This guy is getting more interesting the harder I look at him!

[Tom Currie]

Eric, Thanks for posting the additional pictures. One thing that jumps out to me on the sister rifle is the deeper loopy/squigly carving between the volutes on the main C scroll. He clearly is an accomplished and creative carver. If this is a 1790 ish rifle what would he have been building 10 or 15 years earlier ?

[DaveM]

Eric, I have not read through all of your detailed notes, and maybe you saw this already, but doing a search I found reference to a John Rup as a soldier during the revolution in Berks County.  Not sure if this is of any value to you and maybe this was not the gunsmith but thought it was interesting.  Do you know what his wife’s name was?

[DaveM]

I see also there was a John Rup living in Robeson Twp, Berks in 1786-1787, as a single man and no occupation noted.  Don’t really see this person in berks records after about 1787 at least from my brief search.

[WESTbury]

Rupp rifle at Sotheby's gaveled price. 60k +

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2022/the-william-k-du-pont-collection-important-americana-from-rocky-hill/extremely-rare-and-fine-carved-and-figured-maple

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dave: there were Rupp - Rup - Rub - Raub - Raup - Reib - Roap - Rubb - etc etc etc people listed all over SEPA during this period.  This has been one of the most difficult things I have encountered - trying to determine who was who.  I came across this John Rup in Berks a number of years ago and initially thought it might be 'our guy' but I no longer think it can be in any way.  First of all, if Johannes Rupp's (Macungie) birth date of 1762 is actually correct, he would have been 15 to 16 y.o in 1777-1778.  John in Macungie took the oath in 1783, and was active in NH Co. militia in the early 1780s, but nothing in the 1770s, so I feel pretty positive that this is a different family group over in Berks.  They may have been tied into the Rupps that were in either Philadelphia, Lancaster or Lebanon, which were all different family groups.

[mr. no gold]

Eric, does the 'Roop' family derive from the Rupps? A bit of similarity there.
Dick

[AsMs]

All,

I just read through this and would like to make a comment on the liberty head symbol. Everyone has their own thoughts on the matter. So I would like to propose this. The known facts are this, they are post war pieces. People refer to their weapons in the feminine sense ie her/she. Post war patriotism was high. So here is my thought. The symbol could have be placed on the guns by the builder for the purchaser to show that they were veterans of the war. The symbol is female because their gun is referred to in the female tense. It is of Liberty “what they fought for”. Guns in that time were a personal belonging and a symbol of personal pride. If you had a gun with Lady Liberty you were showing everyone that you were a proud veteran of the war. This is no different than today when you see old veterans wearing ball caps with their old unit on it and symbols of the battle hard fought long ago. Also mentioned earlier is how many PA gunsmith put Lady Liberty on contract muskets in the post war era. Because these weapons were to be used to protect our freedoms.

Thoughts and comments welcome


AsMs

[Buck]

AsMs,

Interesting theory. That symbol is typically associated with a certain area - I've never seen it on a Lancaster or Berks piece. I could be wrong.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Robert Weil and I have discussed something along those lines for many years now.  He has often said that he thinks it was some kind of 'club' symbol, although meaning that in a representative sense; the question then would be, "who was in the club?"  Or, what did the 'club' represent?  I've hypothesized that it perhaps may have initiated with men who worked in the armories in Allentown during the War, but the concept that it was put upon rifles to be owned by veterans also has a lot of merit; it could conceivably remove the gunsmith from the equation if this makes sense.  Or, perhaps it's a combination of the two ideas:  it originated amongst the gunsmiths of the region who had worked for the cause, and became a desirable ornament or meaningful ornament among those who had served in a different way.

It seems to have worked it's way over into eastern Berks but in a much "funkier" and whimsical form.  Peter Angstadt was putting what can only be viewed as weird figures in the same location forward of the guard, Stoffil Long or someone up there popped a few on patchbox lids and there are a couple of pieces with what clearly is meant to represent an Indian forward of the guard.  But the guys who had worked in the Rupp/Moll circle, including Peter Neihart and Jacob Kuntz, all seemed to follow a very similar form with slight changes maker to maker.  And of course William Antes, although thus far I have not found anything to tie him in with any of the Allentown guys other than an association with the Moravians at Bethlehem.

[spgordon]

I know I'm like a broken record on this--but I still think it is possible that it is this liberty head/Indian head that is being referred to in this 1772 advertisement in the Pennsylvania Gazette, which mentioned a gun "with a curled walnut stock, sliding loops, mounted with brass, the foresight and thumbpiece silver, the maker name John Newcomer, engraven upon the hind part of the barrel, near the figure of a manhead, and J. Newcomer engraven on the lock."

I don't read this as if the "figure of the manhead" is on the barrel but rather that the "figure of the manhead" is "near" the "hind part of the barrel" (so, behind the barrel).

Eric, you've suggested in the past that "the 'figure of a manhead' could be many things." Is there something that we can see on a surviving gun, other than the liberty head/Indian head, that could be a "manhead"?

The other issue is that Newcomer is in Lancaster County and the liberty head/Indian head is in Lehigh County and now eastern Berks County. Is it possible that some unsigned guns with the liberty head/Indian head have been attributed to Lehigh County precisely because of the liberty head/Indian head--but that, if we did not assume that design appeared only in Lehigh County, could be from elsewhere?

I don't mean to hijack the thread about Rupp, but it's been a pretty wide-ranging thread already! My only point is that, to believe that it began with a club in Allentown, one really needs to be sure that the "liberty head/Indian head" design does not appear elsewhere.

[jdm]

I to have wonder about the club or group idea. I believe  it may have  started in Allentown  after the " Liberty Bell ' was hidden there during the war.  Perhaps with the men involved with  hiding the bell.. Maybe a symbol  of local pride associated with it being there? Kind of a this is what our town did.  I think it's a very cool thing and wish we knew the story.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This coming from a Canuck with no dog in the race, I find the story more interesting not knowing the exact details.  Mystery, asitwur!

[Buck]

Eric,

To your point - it emigrated to Berks, so Lehigh is the point of origin. Your 1st example was a native originally from the South Mountain. I have never seen a Lancaster rifle with the Indian Head, was Newcomer from Lancaster originally?

Buck 

[Eric Kettenburg]

Scott - lacking any more information than the gazette description, it's really impossible to say what specifically was on the lost Newcomer gun.  It may have been a recycled European barrel with chisel engraving upon it, or it may have carried some type of deep stamping, or really it could be anything.  And yes, it could be something similar to what was carved or inlayed upon the Northampton area rifles.  However, I'm not aware of it ever appearing (in that form) on a known Lancaster gun or on one of the Newcomer guns.  I have a nagging feeling I remember seeing an inlaid liberty head on a later mid or western PA piece but it may have been some guy that moved there from the east; maybe someone remembers this?

Here's a "figure of a manhead" near the makers name.  It certainly fits the description of the Newcomer engraving to a "T" but I don't think it has anything to do with the Northampton liberty heads!

 

[spgordon]

Here's a "figure of a manhead" near the makers name.  It certainly fits the description of the Newcomer engraving to a "T" but I don't think it has anything to do with the Northampton liberty heads!

 

Right: I wasn't proposing that the liberty head/Indian head was on the Newcomer gun. I just said it was possible, given the description.

I also wrote that I'd be interested to know if we have an example of something else (other than the liberty head/Indian head) that the word "manhead" could refer to.

I appreciate you posting this image in response--& I'm not trying to be difficult but I’m not sure I see what you’re pointing to on this barrel!

[Eric Kettenburg]

It's a Peter Angstadt signature, and following his signature is what I've always considered a little self portrait; it's a side profile of a guy's head with crazy hair.  It's on a few of his rifles; I'll see if I can find an enhanced or better-visible image of one.

Edit:  here's one that's 'enhanced' on the KRA Wes White CD, available through the KRA Foundation:

[spgordon]

Well, now I see it. Yes, that would be another possibility for a "manhead" for sure! 

[Lucky R A]

Eric,   The guy you likely are thinking about with the Western PA rifle is Troutman.  He was trained and lived in the Lehigh Valley before going west. 

Ron

[spgordon]

I've been digging into the Sun Inn (Bethlehem) records lately & was tracing the different men who became landlords in the Moravian period (1758-1851)--and in 1842 Tilghman Rupp of Allentown took over. Wouldn't have thought anything of it except that Jacob Rupp of Upper Macungie Township offers security for the "punctual payment" of Tilghman Rupp's rent. Jacob Rupp's indenture is witnessed by Benjamin Rupp and maybe (hard to read) Herman Rupp.

Same family? Maybe the same Jacob Rupp as that sign?