Author Topic: Artillery type map horns (Read 10226 times)

T.C.Albert · « **on:** September 29, 2009, 09:52:39 PM »

Has anybody else seen or otherwise have any experience with authentic map horns carved from artillery type horns? Ive seen this one around, and am amazed at the price tag...any thoughts? tag...http://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/BostonPowderHorn-1775
TCA

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2009, 10:45:48 PM »

It sure is some mighty clean scrim work on that horn. Really stood the test of time! Maybe it was kept in a safe or something. Certainly it was never actually used, but that doesn't seem to have affected the value.

The few artillery type horns I have seen have been plain, without professional scratching. But it could happen.

Cory Joe Stewart · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2009, 12:00:05 AM »

I'm with Rich, I have never seen one, but would not count it out. I am about to make a horn that would count as a campaign horn or cannon primer and may do some work on it.

Coryjoe

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2009, 12:01:00 AM »

That's a bunch of bucks for any horn. Somebody posted a bunch of military style here awhile back and if I remember right a couple of them had maps on them. I can't find them at the moment.

Tim C.

It took me awhile, here is the link. One of them has a map of Boston on it.TC

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1998.msg20158#msg20158

Brian · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2009, 01:06:01 AM »

A very nice horn. Out of my price range though.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2009, 01:37:44 AM »

CAVEAT EMPTOR!!! Should be a polychrome horn with that amount and quality of work.
Dick

T.C.Albert · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2009, 02:38:41 AM »

Other photos of the horn exist and have been elsewhere on line if I recall correctly...the common type mechanical lever spout tip has been damaged or lost and replaced with some kind of turned looking end like nothing I have ever seen on a horn before....and its a bit strange that a horn presumably carried by a member of the 47 regiment of foot had such pristine carving for all of the hard duty they saw...in fact, they were not allowed to leave until 1783 or so...thats a long time...so why didnt the owner take the horn home with him after caring for it so long?...I suppose maybe it was captured on the battle field....?

I guess I am just wondering what provenance the horn may actually have and who authenticated it...
I would really love to hear the associated story that goes with this piece of history.
TCA

Lee · « **Reply #7 on:** October 01, 2009, 04:23:11 AM »

Tim:
I was going through all the pictures I have of artillery or gunners horns, and couldn't find any with a map on it. There are some engraved artillery horns of course, but I couldn't find one with a map on it. Still, my nagging memory suggests there may be one in the collection at Fort Ticonderoga. As to the horn in the picture, the turned walnut base plug and threaded handle/stopper look dead right. I'd like to see a picture of the spout. As to the engraving, I believe it is not contemporary to the horn. In other words, the engraving was added later and should be considered spurious. In fact, it reminds me of the hand of a faker who did other Boston horns. There are three of his horns in Grancsay's book: The Benjamin Corey (1775) horn, the Valentine Prentice (1777) horn, and the Thomas Frye (1756) horn. I would add the Israel Putnam (1747) horn in the collection at Ft. Ticonderoga to this list as well. Swayze argues in his book that the Frye horn's engraving is not contemporary to the horn (p. 198). I agree.

Now, back to the horn in your picture. The outline of the Boston peninsula, the mill pond, the docks, and the hills on the horn all remind me of the map on the Corey horn (see the sketch in the back of Grancsay's book). Also, most Boston horns use more sweeping lines, less detailed shorelines. I haven't ever see a shoreline on an 18th C. horn outlined in the manner that this one has been done. All these details probably came from a 19th C. map. I believe this horn may have been an authentic gunners horn (I'd still like to see the spout), but I believe the engraving is spurious. Lee

Randy Hedden · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:39:55 PM »

Lee,

Tim Albert and I discussed this horn in private yesterday and we agree with you that the horn is most likely an original, but the scrimshaw was added at some later date and is not contemporary to the horn.

Randy Hedden

Millman48 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 02, 2009, 05:04:43 AM »

I have included a photo of my map horn very similar to the one linked above. It is an artillary type, however it is smaller then a typical larger format artillary horns that I have in my collection. It has the "WD" and broad arrow mark stamped on the brass tip. The map is of Boston showing various fort locations, "Mill Pond", "Windmill Pt.", "Powder houfe", Long Wharf",..........ect. The scrim is very fine in detail, but not polychrome.

Anyone interested in more detail of this horn and any other of the Gunners Horn I have can email me.....

Millman48@earthlink.net

woodsrunner · « **Reply #10 on:** October 02, 2009, 05:21:55 AM »

Is this one of the horns Mitchell's Mausers originally sold?

T.C.Albert · « **Reply #11 on:** October 02, 2009, 04:49:31 PM »

Millman, can you give us any of that horns story ? Seems like carved artillery type horns are pretty common though perhaps seriously underdocumented by collectors and in the past?
TCA

Millman48 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 02, 2009, 06:48:05 PM »

Mr. Albert:

I purchased the horn at the 2003 Baltimore show from a Gary Milan from Beverly Hill, Ca. Mr. Milan purchased the horn in 1980 from Sotherby Parke Bernet auction in Las Angeles. The earliest documentation that I have on the horn is when it was sold by William P. Fisk & co., Boston, to a Richard Calhoun.

The horn is British, note the photo of the horn's tip showing the "WD" & Broad Arrow stamp.

A couple more detail pictures:

T.C.Albert · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:01:29 PM »

Wow!...thank you very much...
TCA

Millman48 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:18:43 PM »

There is another example of a plain brass banded "Cannoneers/Gunners" horn. This horn is unmarked except for a number stamp located on the lower brass band.

Artificer · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:19:09 AM »

TCalbert and Millman48,

Truly enjoyed looking at those horns.

I've never really looked at Gunner's horns that much and noticed that at least two of the horns have similar open eye screws that I assume are for attachment to thongs and straps for carrying? Is one made of brass/bronze and another from iron? Are these ever found on "regular" size horns?

Millman48 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2009, 05:48:57 PM »

Artificer:

Is this Gus?

As far as I can tell the eyelets are brass/bronze. None of the eyes on any or the artillery horns I have are iron, however those with swivel loops, the loops are iron.

Here are some photos of one more interesting "Gunner's" horn. This one is large. Originally it was brass banded, but has lost all of the lower band, and half of the upper band. The butt plug appears of have some of what I assume to be original green paint. Also the body of the horn has a painted script number either "13", or "15". I can't make out the last digit very well. I am guessing that this means the priming horn belonged to gun "No 1_", at some fort, or maybe a "Man-O-War"

?

Lee · « **Reply #17 on:** October 04, 2009, 02:40:12 AM »

Mr. Millman:

Great pictures. Many thanks for sharing them.

My question is, and please don't think I'm being impertinent, why would a War of 1812 horn have a Rev War map of Boston on it? There were no major actions in Boston during the latter war that I know of.

The four spurious horns that I mentioned above are from the 30s and 40s as well - contemporary to the emergence of your horn and most likely the original horn that started this discussion. It is not that unusual to build a fake provenance when monetary gain is involved. It isn't that difficult for a seller to deceive an auction house. I'm just having a hard time being convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the engraving is anywhere near contemporary to the horn, but have been wrong before. In my mind, the two horns are definitely authentic, but the question remains, as I see it, as to whether or not the engraving is contemporary or even within 20 years of the manufacture of either of these two horns.

Concerning the eyelets: One of the gunners horns that I have owned had cast iron eyelets similar to the original horn in question. It is now in Jim Leache's collection.
Lee Larkin

Artificer · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:14:16 PM »

Millman48 and Lee,

Thank you for sharing the info on the eyelets.

Though I know most "regular" size horns didn't have them, something like this is what I look for to more personalize my living history impressions.

Yes, I'm Gus. I suppose I should make a point of ending my posts with my name.

T.C.Albert · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2009, 09:56:43 PM »

For what its worth, I should mention the artillery horn I own also has iron eye screws...one sits proud of the wood in the rear, but anchors into the turned plug after piercing the horn wall, and one is screwed directly into the neck of the horn near the spout.
TCA

Artificer · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2009, 11:09:04 PM »

Quote from: T.C.Albert on October 05, 2009, 09:56:43 PM

For what its worth, I should mention the artillery horn I own also has iron eye screws...one sits proud of the wood in the rear, but anchors into the turned plug after piercing the horn wall, and one is screwed directly into the neck of the horn near the spout.
TCA

Thank you.

I wasn't sure if the horn in front would be strong enough to hold a screw without it cracking or breaking through the horn. That's neat information.

Millman48 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2009, 08:15:50 PM »

Below is a little more information on this subject that may help date some of these types of priming horns prior to the 1812 time period.

News:

Author Topic: Artillery type map horns (Read 10226 times)

Lee

Millman48

Millman48

Millman48

Millman48

Lee

Millman48