looser patch ball combo works

[AZshot]

...at least it made loading easier.  After shooting black powder off and on for 40 years, with very tight target loads I decided to try loose.  A .440 ball in my .45 Colerain was too tight.  Several panic moments when the ramrod would stop going down a foot from the bottom.  So I bought some .437 and did a woods walk last weekend.  How nice to just gently bump the ball into the bore with the starter, then run it down with the ram smoothly.  I just shot at trees and deadfall, so don't know about accuracy, but it was nice not worrying about just having the ramrod, no steel range rod. If you haven't tried looser combos, try it.

[MuskratMike]

Before I would go to that small of a bore I would adjust my patch thickness and or lube. All my rifles except my .40 Kibker SMR use balls.010 undersized. That one is .005 undersized. I use either TOTW mink oil/grease or a 50/50 combo mink and pure neatsfoot oil. Went shooting with some guys today shooting .29 and .32 caliber squirrel Guns at paper and metal swingers. Cool and rainy day. Shot all morning and never swabbed my bore and the last ball loaded the same as the first.
Let us know how that small ball shoots for accuracy.

[Daryl]

I am curious, too, Mike. I've shot lots of loads that allow easy loading and do not require wiping at any time, but have found a tighter ball and patch has shot more accurately.
Of course, accuracy is subjective. It depends on what what good accuracy actually is, to everyone. Opinions are just that and most opinions are different with most people.

[Panzerschwein]

A very snug load with spit patch has worked excellent for me. Nice and moist patch wipes the bore clean with each shot.

[elkhart]

The difference between hunting loads and target loads. My range is limited by my middle age eyesight, so looser ball/patch combos are fine.

[Frank]

Loose fit is fine with me. I am not looking for clover leaf groups at 50 yards. I am fine with 1-2 inch groups.

[bones92]

With proper lubrication, the last 12 inches of seating a patched ball should be easy. I think AZShot might have issues with fouling collecting at the bottom of the barrel.

Since I have started using a very wet patch with Ballistol & water (about 1:3 or 1:4), I've had very good luck with fouling remaining soft and easy loading.   

I read a post by one of you a couple years ago, how you describe using a patch that's almost dripping wet.   At first, I thought that was crazy... then I thought about it.  As the patched ball goes down the bore, the fouling and bore surface are pulling moisture from the patch.  So a patch that's very wet at the crown is probably somewhat drier by the time it goes down 40 inches of sooty barrel.

So now I never swab between shots.  I pour powder and drive home a wet patched ball, which I think serves to "swab" the bore, leaving any fouling between the powder and the ball.  I cannot describe how much this has improved my experience at the range.  Misfires due to clogged vent holes are largely a thing of the past.

[EC121]

This 50yd. 7 shot group was shot from my Bob Harn rifle using a .526 ball in a .54 with a wet .023 patch and #9 Plus.  No wiping.  I pulled the last one.  I thought I was missing the paper.  Easy loading.  I could use the wooden rod in the woods.

[Stoner creek]

This 50yd. 7 shot group was shot from my Bob Harn rifle using a .526 ball in a .54 with a wet .023 patch and #9 Plus.  No wiping.  I pulled the last one.  I thought I was missing the paper.  Easy loading.  I could use the wooden rod in the woods.

EC121,
 If you can’t afford real targets, p/m me and i can send you a few. I just hate to see you shooting up your fine dinner ware.

[rich pierce]

Anything made by Bob Harn has some magic in it.

[Daryl]

This 50yd. 7 shot group was shot from my Bob Harn rifle using a .526 ball in a .54 with a wet .023 patch and #9 Plus.  No wiping.  I pulled the last one.  I thought I was missing the paper.  Easy loading.  I could use the wooden rod in the woods.

Nice, there is a postal match running, ya know.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=68498.0

[EC121]

Wayne:  Those plates work fine after I rinse the food off.  I was using the wife's good Noritake china but only got one shot per plate.

[AZshot]

Before I would go to that small of a bore I would adjust my patch thickness and or lube. All my rifles except my .40 Kibker SMR use balls.010 undersized. That one is .005 undersized. I use either TOTW mink oil/grease or a 50/50 combo mink and pure neatsfoot oil...

OK, more details.  I'm using Neatsfoot oil for lube, quite wet.  My patches are .012" so if you use a .437 ball, that equals .461 of things filling the bore. It's a Colerain, and measures .443 across the lands.  Don't know the grooves.  So to me, .437 is about right.  When I was shooting .440s, they were very tight starting, even up at the bore where patches have the most lube.  It took a good wack on the ball starter to get the ball in, I'd say almost hurting your hand level.  Then it would ram pretty easily most of the way, maybe 4-5 lbs of pressure on the rod, until the last 4 inches. 

I live in AZ, it's very dry here.  As in 10% humidity.  BP gets very crusty very fast.  The last few inches are that crust I guess. 

My old .36 Mowrey didn't have as much fowling shooting it here in AZ, and a simiarly tight combo.  But it was just a .36. 

I'll shoot a few on target next, and look at the patches too. 

[smylee grouch]

AZshot, your combo sounds like you might be getting some blow by, what do the shot patches look like?

[AZshot]

They look like a brief flutter of a quail flying away from you, at about 40 yards, on a foggy morning. Oh, you mean what do they look like in hand!?  I only fired a few shots with this load so far, haven't recovered any patches yet, but will.  The tight load they would have some spots of  burn through, or cutting on rifling.  Not big holes, just a couple spots. 

[Daryl]

OK, more details.  I'm using Neatsfoot oil for lube, quite wet. My patches are .012" so if you use a .437 ball, that equals .449 of things filling the bore. It's a Colerain, and measures .443 across the lands.
I'll shoot a few on target next, and look at the patches too.

From your numbers, you have a .467" at .012" deep rifling, or .463" rifling at .010" deep rifling.
Your ball and patch combination is .437" + .012 + .012 = .461", thus, even with only .010" deep rifling, you are short of filling the grooves, thus likely have blow-past which fouls the bore, especially
at the breech.
What do your recovered patches look like?
Can you find recovered patches?
Browns streaks out from the black marks is blow-by.
Simple holes from the lands means you are likely cutting the patch from too-sharp a muzzle crown. With that, I would suggest you search for muzzle crowning threads.
Burnt large holes is from blow-by destroying the patch. Charred shreds says the same thing.
I have never used such a poor (thin) patch. The thinnest patch I will use, is 8 ounce denim that I measure compressed at .019" to .020" & that is with a bore sized ball.(same as the bore diameter).
I was using a .360" ball in my .36 Rice barrel, with a 10 ounce denim patch (.021" compressed) until I ran out of them. Now, I'm back to using .350", with the same patch.
With your combination being difficult to start, that sounds as if the crown is too sharp.  Then it loads fairly easy until it does down to where the fouling has accumulated.
Solution, is a re-crown and thicker patch as with at least an 8 ounce denim. You are using a starter, which is good.

[MuskratMike]

Don't we go through this thread every 90 days or so? it sure seems like it.
It all boils down to the amount of powder you use, the size of the ball, the thickness of the patch and the lube you use.
Only change one variable at a time. This is not something you can accomplish with one or two trips to the range. It sometimes takes weeks or longer to work out the "complete load" that works in your rifle. Not my rifle or your buddies rifle that is just like yours, they are all different but similar.
Take your time, work through all the variables until you find the one load combination that is right for your gun.
So ended the sermon.
"Muskrat" Mike
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

[Dobyns]

Colerain specs .016" groove depth on .45 and larger, so a patch needs to be thicker than .016" just to seal.

[AZshot]

I'll measure my patches again when it gets light enough, I might have measured them wrong.  And next time I fire it I'll get some patches.  I was walking in the woods, heavy leaves and water in a creek weren't conducive to finding the patches of the 3 shots I fired.  But my main goal was not accuracy.  It was a smaller ball because beating on the ramrod with my hatchet and praying I can get it seated was too stressful.  I knew these patches were thin, I'd tried slightly thicker with the .440 balls once.  Just once, it almost got stuck halfway down and I broke a ramrod trying to get it seated.  So something's gotta give.  I can't go thicker patches to fill the grooves if the ball is too big to get down the bore.

I do appreciate all the help.  My next plan is to keep using .437 size balls, and try a slightly thicker patch.  AFTER eyeballing a few patches.  If they are ok, and the gun shoots as accurately as I need, I'm done. 

[Marcruger]

AZShot,

No disrespect offered or intended here.  That said, I believe your posting may mislead some newcomers or those inexperienced in our sport.

For folks who want to hit what they are aiming at plinking, on targets, or especially on live animals, accuracy is very important.  I do not see any accuracy results in your posting.  I would like to see a 50 yard target grouping.  Or 100 yards.  I would also like to see a photo of your patches.
 
You can indeed make your loading job easier by using undersized balls and patching, but to what end?   If it is not accurate, what have you gained if you cannot hit that to which you are aiming?  Just making loading easier to me is not a goal.
 
I believe your math is off.  You have a Colerain barrel. I checked and they use .016” deep round-bottomed grooves for .45 caliber and above.  So, .450” bore plus .016” groove plus .016” groove you get .482” to fill.  How did you measure your bore size?  A pin gauge?   .443” sounds off like for a consistent company like Colerain.
 
Your load of a .437” ball plus .012” patching on each side (or x2) equals .461” of ball/patch.  You are nowhere near filling that bore.  Even if you have a .443” bore, that would equal .475 to fill, and your .461 ball/patch won’t come near sealing.
 
If the bore is not sealed, you get hot gasses and fouling blowing past the ball/patch combo.  That gives several problems:

*Velocity variations, which leads to……
*Poor Accuracy
*Lots of fouling and harder cleanup
*Difficulty in Loading

Regarding patching, my test is to hold my fired patch up to the sun.  If I can see any light through the patch, I need a denser and/or thicker patch.  I use The Minute-Men untreated 100% canvas patching.  I always check the fired patches, but never see light through them.  Any burn-through or hole can cause the issues listed above.
 
In your current very dry climate, you may be getting hard fouling near the breech.  Are you using Swiss?  I find that Swiss has less fouling, but that it is harder.  My suggestion would be to continue to wet lube with a tight ball/patch combo.  When it gets too hard to load, wipe out the bore, then go back to shooting.
 
I think many who tight patch can relate to having to whack a ball starter to the get load down the bore.  It goes with the territory.
 
Best wishes,   Marc

[rich pierce]

Sometimes difficulty ramming is due to the condition of the bore more than using a ball-patch combo which should work. They can get frosty and it can be difficult to see with brilliant light but you can feel it. A quick lapping with a patch embedded with valve grinding compound will smooth things up and reveal any tight spots. Now, if you follow with Mother’s chrome polish from the auto parts store, woooo-eeee now you’ve reduced loading effort considerably. Plus the stuff seems to be a rust preventative if you don’t follow with new patches to get any residue out while storing. One cleaning patch before shooting and good to go.

[Marcruger]

"Only change one variable at a time. This is not something you can accomplish with one or two trips to the range. It sometimes takes weeks or longer to work out the "complete load" that works in your rifle. "

Ditto.

[hanshi]

I do virtually all my loading, woods and the club range, with the wood underbarrel rod.  If it doesn't work at the range then it won't work in the bush.  I've used a lot of ticking and with good results, but the results with thicker patching is better all around.  Nearly all the loads are with ball .010" or .009" under bore size.  An exception is the .45.  I use .440" and .445" sometimes interchangeably in two of them.  With patching considerably thicker than ticking the seating effort is greater but still easily accomplished with a wood rod.  Usually I refer to them a "tight"; but "very snug" is probably a better description.  Starting out it normally takes a good hand whack with a short starter; but with bad ra damaged hands I guess the whack is actually more like wimpy rather than hard. 

Liquid lubed patches that are very wet but not actually drippy are the easiest to seat.  Mink oil, mostly for the bush, not so much.  But the mink oil patches do go down quite without complaint.  With either there's no necessity to wipe the bore.

[AZshot]

One thing I don't know yet is how accurate a looser combo is.  I did change only one component...the ball size.  As far as measuring the bore, I used steel calipers. I'll try again with a loupe. 

For determining .440 is too tight I also used my Mk 1, Mod 2 calibrated Experience.  .440 is too tight with this patch, but like Rich says I could lap the bore, but that doesn't seem to be a normal issue with a Colerain, a quality barrel.  I'm more of a seat of the pants guy (though an aerospace engineer for much of my career), and if it feels too tight, it is too tight.  I don't want to have to use a steel ramrod and pray the ball won't get stuck.  That is too tight, regardless of what measurements are supposed.  And again - I'm holding the rifle and measuring and feeling what I'm using....not reading up on specs on their website.  Did they make mine smaller bore?  Who knows.  Putting all your weight onto the ramrod and getting red faced to get a load down seems....too tight. My patches were already too think, I knew that.  So I went to a smaller ball.  Viola...I can load easier.  Next to see if accuracy is out the window or not. 


The .440 balls with the patches (remeasured, closer to .013 or .014 depending on how hard you squeeze) are as tight as I like with a fresh bore.  After 3 shots I felt compelled to clean it, it was getting that rough.  Here was it's accuracy at 50 yds, I shot this load for about a year, this was typical accuracy with light loads, 55 gr.



So if super tight is doing that, now to see what looser is.  I don't mean the new one is a sloppy fit.  I mean I can push the ball down with moderate pressure, not gorilla pressure.

[Daryl]

Glad Rich spoke to the bore condition. That sounds to me, to be the culprit.  A square of Maroon Scotch Brite, sprayed with WD40 and worked on a jag about 40 strokes will do wonders
for a frosted bore.  A lady at Hefley was having trouble loading her .58 that her husband cleaned with HOT water. The bore was slightly more than frosted, so we did the Scotch Brite polish
to the barrel and not her husband uses cold water and she's delighted to have her .58 back that requires no cleaning while she's shooting a trail of 22 shots.  She is a fairly strong woman
(farmer) who is using a .570" ball and .020" patch in the .580" bore.  My daughter and wife use the same combinations, .010" smaller ball than bore and 10ounce denim at .021". All use the
rifle's hickory rod.