Author Topic: Reliable way to test old powder  (Read 2189 times)

Offline Top Jaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
Reliable way to test old powder
« on: November 24, 2021, 08:31:14 PM »
Obviously, I know the short answer to this is just go shoot it and see.  But the range I use is about an hour away.  A coworker gave me some old 2F Goex (metal can) his father had stored in an outside shed for several years. It seems clumpy when you shake it. May have started to go bad.

What does bad powder look like?  Are there any tell tale signs I can use to determine if it’s still good?   Odor, appearance, etc. for powder that is no longer reliable to shoot?  Will safely igniting 10 grains in a metal cup tell me anything (to check the burn & fouling)?  Or flash it in the pan, or light a thin line of it like in the movies, or any other ideas?   If I eventually shoot it, what do I look for?  Your thoughts.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 08:39:00 PM by Top Jaw »

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2021, 09:29:05 PM »
Obviously, I know the short answer to this is just go shoot it and see.  But the range I use is about an hour away.  A coworker gave me some old 2F Goex (metal can) his father had stored in an outside shed for several years. It seems clumpy when you shake it. May have started to go bad.

What does bad powder look like?  Are there any tell tale signs I can use to determine if it’s still good?   Odor, appearance, etc. for powder that is no longer reliable to shoot?  Will safely igniting 10 grains in a metal cup tell me anything (to check the burn & fouling)?  Or flash it in the pan, or light a thin line of it like in the movies, or any other ideas?   If I eventually shoot it, what do I look for?  Your thoughts.

Yes, the short answer is to just shoot it and see.  Sometimes old black powder samples will show the ravages created by poor storage.  Especially if the caps were not screwed tightly on the cans. Going back into the 1980s there was a short period of time when you opened a new case of GOEX you had powder all over the tops of the cans and in the bottom of the cardboard case.  For some reasons somebody on their female packing line was not tightening the caps.  Just putting them on loosely.  But that was a short period odd thing that was soon corrected.  If the caps are not on tight the cans "breathe" with changes in atmospheric pressure.  Air with moisture goes in.  But the powder pulls most of the moisture out of that air.  Then when the atmospheric pressure drops the can releases dry air.  And this cycling goes on and on with the normal cycles in air pressure with high pressure and low pressure air mass movement.  This this cycling of the moisture in the powder leaves deposits of potassium nitrate on the surfaces of the grains.  You will see patches of a white deposit on the grains.

Depending on the brand and period of production you may see chemical changes in the powder that cannot be detected with the eyes.  When black powder picks up moisture, especially above 1% water by weight of powder, you will see chemical changes in the powder that relate to the sulfur content of the powder.   Fresh black powder is alkaline due to the mineral content of the charcoal being used.  If the sulfur particles start to produce traces of sulfur acid with added moisture the alkaline minerals from the charcoal quickly kill the acid.   Eventually you run out of those charcoal minerals that act as an acid buffer.  The powder then starts to turn acidic from the sulfur acid formed.  Then the process starts to speed up.  Then what you have is what is described as a self-accelerating decomposition reaction.  And I should point out that smokeless powders do the same thing.

In the black powder the sulfur acid goes after the potassium nitrate and leaves the actual carbon of the charcoal alone.  So the elemental sulfur level starts to drop and the powder begins to loose oxygen.  Ignition becomes slower and increasingly more difficult.  And with less oxygen to give to combustion the powder looses strength.  Lower velocities and more fouling and the fouling becomes rather corrosive.    You can sometimes detect this by hanging a swimming pool pH strip in the can for a few hours.  The air in the can gets rather acidic.

Open air flashing of partially deteriorated often will not show anything.  With open burning the powder in the air the powder can use oxygen from the air around it.  I learned that one real quick when looking at 100 year old BP samples. Great in the open.  Shot it in the gun and figured I would best add the garden hose to the post shooting bore cleaning.

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2021, 09:48:36 PM »
Forgot to mention this one.

When the powder cycles moisture in a can the grains surfaces may get soft.  Take the back of a finger nail and see what happens when you press on the grain.  Is the grain hard and snaps when you squash it or does it just start to crumble to dust.  The grains were hard when made.  So keeping that hardness shows no mechanical strength loss of excessive chemical change in the powder.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7678
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2021, 11:31:27 PM »
I wonder if you could shoot a 5 shot group with the old powder and one with a new batch of the same grade and then see if the old stuff is still shooting comparably the same. An actual cronograph (sp) test might be even better if you have one or access to one.

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2021, 12:04:46 AM »
Obviously, I know the short answer to this is just go shoot it and see.  But the range I use is about an hour away.  A coworker gave me some old 2F Goex (metal can) his father had stored in an outside shed for several years. It seems clumpy when you shake it. May have started to go bad.

What does bad powder look like?  Are there any tell tale signs I can use to determine if it’s still good?   Odor, appearance, etc. for powder that is no longer reliable to shoot?  Will safely igniting 10 grains in a metal cup tell me anything (to check the burn & fouling)?  Or flash it in the pan, or light a thin line of it like in the movies, or any other ideas?   If I eventually shoot it, what do I look for?  Your thoughts.

You say it seems clumpy when you shake it.  May have started to go bad.

I have had cans of black powder go clumpy.  That depends a lot on how much graphite was used to coat the grains.  GOEX, at the old Moosic plant, tended to use heavy coatings of graphite to hide the results of the cheap fertilizer grade of potassium nitrate in the powder.  When you look at the moisture content of a black powder you must remember that most of the moisture is in the surfaces of the grains.  Generally BP would be packed and shipped with a moisture content of around 0.5%.  When dealing with almost all crystaline materials you have a thing where if crystal surfaces come in contact with other crystal surfaces they all try to fuse together into one large crystal.  Think of salt you purchase for food use in a store.  That salt contains what they call an anti-blocking agent.  Meaning that the thin dusting of the anti-blocking agent keep the salt crystals from growing together into a smaller number of much larger crystals.  So BP grain clumping is sometimes seen and these clumps are easily broken up with destroying the actual grains.  This joining of crystals of the same material is akin to stacking one block of ice on top of another.  Eventually the two blocks fuse together to form one.

Offline Top Jaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2021, 05:13:00 AM »
That’s a lot of good info MM.

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3668
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2021, 04:24:47 PM »
Thank you Bill.  I am always thankful to receive your hard-won knowledge.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2021, 09:09:31 PM »
Thank you Bill.  I am always thankful to receive your hard-won knowledge.  God Bless,   Marc

Time here for a bit more on the graphite topic.  You sometimes see that it is claimed that the graphite protects the powder grains from moisture.  Not So!  The scattering of graphite crystals over the surfaces of the powder grains does not give a continuous film on the grains.  Simply because it is in the form of minute crystals.  Gaps between the crystals are larger than a molecule of water that would be found in the air around the grains.  Graphite is highly hydrophobic.  But the individual molecules of water can work between the crystals and become attached to the glaze (skin) on the grains surfaces.  But since it keeps the grains from sticking together the idea was that the graphite film was actually repelling the water molecules preventing them from joining the skin (glaze) on the surfaces of the powder grains.

When du Pont ran the Brandywine works they did not normally graphite small arms powders for civilian use.  But some commercial cartridge companies insisted that the powders they bought be lightly graphite coated.  This speeded up their cartridge loading lines.  The graphite coated powder grains would flow more easily through the cartridge loading funnel and not bridge the funnels down near when they dropped into the brass cases being loaded.

But again.  Graphited powder grains $#@* up the bore during shooting.  The pure carbon graphite crystals do not burn until you heat them to 2000 degrees and then burn only slowly.  In this think of the old graphite carbon rod arc lamps used in anti-aircraft defense systems. 

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2021, 12:25:07 AM »
MM,

I find your information very interesting.  Wish I had had access to that when I was a Pre-inline ML hunter safety instructor.  Have you ever thought of putting together a booklet or PDF type download with this information along with a Q&A section for the myth busters?  I would definitely be in for a copy.   

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2021, 03:16:45 AM »
MM,

I find your information very interesting.  Wish I had had access to that when I was a Pre-inline ML hunter safety instructor.  Have you ever thought of putting together a booklet or PDF type download with this information along with a Q&A section for the myth busters?  I would definitely be in for a copy.

Jeff,
For the past several days I am just kicking out odd facts that I had picked up in my studies years ago. In January I will turn 80 and the hospital running me on the very low side of hemoglobin has really effected my memory.  Stuff from way back keeps popping to the front at various times.  Stuff that if I tried to remember exactly would escape me.  So that these gems of BP knowledge don't get lost forever I have been throwing them up in the strings of posts to at least get them out there.  And until Hodgdon announced the shut down of Minden nobody really seemed to show any interest in the info.
The other day I dug up my old copy of the bore fouling studies.  That as another interesting project.

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2021, 12:06:52 AM »
MM,

There is an incredible level of knowledge among the members of the Forum as demonstrated by your comments on the characteristics of black powder.  Any info that you could put together would be of interest and doing so might kick other knowledge loose as you write??  One of my primary reading interests is the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade and much of what I have learned has come from books written decades ago.  As our sport and related crafts become more boutique while competing with electronic addiction, I would still be a cheer leader for any effort you wanted to undertake.  Best wishes on continued good health.  Seems like we have to work harder every year just to stay even.  Jeff

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2021, 12:43:49 AM »
MM,

There is an incredible level of knowledge among the members of the Forum as demonstrated by your comments on the characteristics of black powder.  Any info that you could put together would be of interest and doing so might kick other knowledge loose as you write??  One of my primary reading interests is the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade and much of what I have learned has come from books written decades ago.  As our sport and related crafts become more boutique while competing with electronic addiction, I would still be a cheer leader for any effort you wanted to undertake.  Best wishes on continued good health.  Seems like we have to work harder every year just to stay even.  Jeff

Jeff,

Going back about 20 years I wrote a bunch of booklets on the BP business from about 1972 until 2000.  As soon as an old powder plant closed there records went into the local landfill.  In 1996 The GOEX plant at Moosic, PA had a fire that destroyed their main office.  All of the plant records from 1972 until 1996 were destroyed.  That end up as me having the only records on the plant.

A Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Era fan?  Gotta fix you up my my Project Greenhorn.  When I started looking at the green copper dyeing of powder horns I got tangled up with the Museum Of The Fur Trade.  Seemed I explained to them why there were rather large amounts of copper acetate being shipped out to the mountains.  Also also explained one of the steps in the old animal hide tanning process.  The "dunging pit". 

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2199
  • Oklahoma
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2021, 12:57:19 AM »
Dying horns green? Now that is something I would be most interested in reading about.
Psalms 144

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2021, 05:53:35 AM »
I enjoy making horns and have made a few fancy

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2021, 06:02:02 AM »
MM,  Well, the above post is a living example of skill with a key board.  Oh well.  I enjoy making horns, and have made a few fancy F & I era ones.  I prefer making ones that would likely have been made by the user in the field or in their cabin.  I have mostly used darker yellow dyes to age but have also seen the green patina on some old ones as well.  Some of the very skilled artisans on this blog can duplicate almost any look.  I enjoy viewing their work.  The BP info you sent me is very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  Merry Christmas to you and all.   Jeff

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2021, 07:42:55 AM »
MM,  Well, the above post is a living example of skill with a key board.  Oh well.  I enjoy making horns, and have made a few fancy F & I era ones.  I prefer making ones that would likely have been made by the user in the field or in their cabin.  I have mostly used darker yellow dyes to age but have also seen the green patina on some old ones as well.  Some of the very skilled artisans on this blog can duplicate almost any look.  I enjoy viewing their work.  The BP info you sent me is very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  Merry Christmas to you and all.   Jeff

Jeff,

When I looked at some early 1800s store records out of Bedford County they showed a gunsmith buying a raw horn from the store for 15 cents.  Then when I got into the chapter on that gunsmith his records showed he sold a powder horn he produced.  Charged 25 cents.  Those old gunsmiths mad a lot of plain simple horns for use out in the field.  You saw very fancy rifles used only at the monthly militia meetings.  Then just plain simple rifles for hunting out in the fields and woods.  You see the same thing in the horns.  Those monthly militia gatherings were the social gatherings where the more wealthy shook hands and kissed babies before an election.  After the Rev War the newspaper in Pottstown, PA would have articles on the militia gatherings and what went on at them.   

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2021, 04:43:25 AM »
I guess few things have changed regarding political/social gatherings.  The cost is higher and I guess they all show off their cell phones and lap tops rather than a fine rifle.  Too bad the cell phones and lap tops seem to be more dangerous.

Offline Mad Monk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2021, 05:25:14 AM »
I guess few things have changed regarding political/social gatherings.  The cost is higher and I guess they all show off their cell phones and lap tops rather than a fine rifle.  Too bad the cell phones and lap tops seem to be more dangerous.

I am pushing 80.  As I look at today's politics I would like to see Dueling brought back.

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2446
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2021, 11:10:28 AM »
Bill, it would be difficult to duel with all the pols that need that - remember that the BP mill closed recently.

I try to keep all my BP well sealed, using plastic containers.  But I do worry about static sparks with the plastic "cans".  Is it an actual danger, and is there a way to dissipate the static?
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9350
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2021, 03:51:30 PM »
Put a long fuse in the can,Bury the can.Light the fuse and get away from it.
Wait for big boom.  ;D A simpler way would be to put a small amount in the pan of a good
sparking flintlock and pull the trigger (after closing the frizzen).
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 03:59:39 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9350
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2021, 06:42:04 PM »
I guess few things have changed regarding political/social gatherings.  The cost is higher and I guess they all show off their cell phones and lap tops rather than a fine rifle.  Too bad the cell phones and lap tops seem to be more dangerous.

I am pushing 80.  As I look at today's politics I would like to see Dueling brought back.

I staggered past 80 5 years ago and second the idea of dueling.
Bob Roller

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 583
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2021, 12:53:02 AM »
To save black powder for us legitimate users we could switch to paint ball guns for dueling.  The range is good enough.  The loser would have to give up their political office as a penalty.  The TV reality show that featured the duels would likely be a major hit (no pun intended)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15079
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2021, 01:57:25 AM »
Wouldn't it, though. Likely more popular with one side of the isle, than the other. ;D ;D
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline old george

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
Re: Reliable way to test old powder
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2021, 06:16:19 PM »
Now that got a laugh out of me this morning.  ;D ;D ;D ;)

george
I cannot go to Hades: Satan has a restraining order against me. :)