Author Topic: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited  (Read 2223 times)

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« on: November 27, 2021, 07:20:07 AM »
In my 40 years of collecting and researching Tansel powder horns, there have been only two original bag & horn sets found, both early Indiana era sets. One of those sets has an interesting story behind it, which I thought might be a "warm fuzzy" for those of us who love these horns. Some of you may have seen an Indiana Tansel horn with an elaborate bone powder measure on Ebay a couple months ago. I fortunately also saw it. The horn and measure were part of the best Tansel bag & horn set I had ever seen, in a county museum in Indiana. I had photographed the full set over 20 years ago for my records, with a knife sheaf on the bag's back side. Considerable wear on the horn attested to its hanging on the bag, in the field, for many years.

I was concerned that the item might have been stolen from the museum, so I made sure I got it, and planned to confront the seller after receiving it. The seller was in Indiana where I live, so I asked if I could pick it up to prevent damage or loss in shipping [really to meet the seller and get an i.d.] and he was fine with it, even offered to have his wife meet me close to where I live and deliver the horn. When I met his wife, I felt awkward asking her about the history of the horn, but felt obligated to do so. I told her I had photographed the horn, with its bag, in the county museum over 20 years earlier, so was familiar with it. She told me it was a family heirloom on her husband's side, whose family had an early history in the County. The family had loaned a large number of family items to the museum many years ago. Recently, they learned that several of their family pieces had disappeared from the museum, upsetting them, so they pulled their remaining family items from the museum. She then proceeded to give me four (4) old 1950s and early 1960s local newspaper articles that documented the bag & horn and other accoutrements, with two articles providing a full provenance from the first family that owned the bag & horn set, up to the present day. I was flabbergasted, and to make it even better, two of the old newspaper articles had photographs of the owner's grandfather holding/showing the exact Tansel bag & horn with the great bone charger dangling off its side... and he was holding the original rifle and spike tomahawk that had accompanied the bag & horn set. Quite a surprise and kind of a heart-pounding experience.

I told the owner's wife that the horn and measure originally had a leather hunting bag with it, and asked if they still had it. She said all the family's returned items were piled up in their basement, and she would look for it. I then asked about the rifle and tomahawk. The rifle had been sold off years before, and the spike tomahawk was one of the family items that had disappeared and caused the family to pull the remaining items from the museum.

A few days later the owner's wife contacted me and said she had found the "old bag, and it wasn't in very good shape, so did I still want it?" I told her I did, and she said she was coming up my way in a few days and would deliver it. I got the bag a few days later, compared it to my old photos and it was the correct bag, exactly as it looked 20+ years before. With the photos, I also knew the orientation of the horn on the bag during its last years, and in a few minutes, it was all back together, reunited after an "almost disastrous" sale on Ebay. PICTURES: top is Ebay listing picture... bottom is reunited bag & horn set.

There are two post scripts to this story:

1) Had I not seen the bag & horn set 20 years before, or had some other Ebay buyer gotten it, no one would have asked "Where's the bag?" and one of the only two known, original Tansel bag & horn sets would have parted ways forever. I never got a good answer for why the owner removed the horn and measure from the bag, but his wife intimated that they thought the bag was beat up and of little value. It was probably not long for this world, had I not asked about it.

2) An Ebay scam artist, since the Ebay auction, has posted the same horn and bone measure several times, using the same pictures and descriptions, trying to get a buyer to "make a good offer" directly to the seller, who is "a pawn shop going out of business." I contacted Ebay each time I saw the listing, and they removed it by/before the next day. But if you see it for sale on Ebay again, or somewhere else, I'd advise you to not bid on it and report it immediately; it's a scam and the horn and measure are not there... they are sitting in my gun safe.

Note: Additional information on this and other Tansel powder horns in the form of short, easy-to-read articles can be found on my web site, www.kentuckygunmakers.com. The site is devoted to Tansel powder horns and muzzle loading rifles from Kentucky, the "true" Kentucky rifle.

Shelby Gallien




« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 05:01:45 AM by Tanselman »

Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 818
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2021, 08:24:10 AM »
 What a story! What a good story!
Okieboy

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3749
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2021, 04:06:18 PM »
Very pleased to read this story. Great save Shelby. Do you have a picture of the Tomahawk?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Online Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17988
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2021, 04:27:09 PM »
 WOW! THAT is quite the story, luckily you recognized it,  what a find. Had to be exciting.

   Tim

Offline hornturner

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2021, 04:36:43 PM »
Shelby, especially on eBay "knowledge is power".  I was following and bidding on that horn.  When it went for the price it brought I was a bit surprised, but now I fully understand!  I am very glad you saw it and got it.  What a catch!  Congrats.
Art DeCamp

Offline Shopdog

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2021, 06:15:01 PM »
Thanks for sharing that and an even bigger thanks saving the set!  While ebay opens up access to a wide body of items it has also lead to the unnecessary separation of so many artifacts from their provenance.  To see a case like this is practically “providential” - you were the right person at the right time!
Joe
Joe Davis
“We live in a bloody swamp! We need all the land we can get!

Offline jdm

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2021, 09:25:13 PM »
Shelby,  I'm  glad you caught that. It's an important save. 
Do you happen to have any pictures of the wear side of the horn?
JIM

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2021, 10:23:02 PM »
Way to go Shelby!!! Right place, right time, right person. Hurrah! Thank you for posting the photos and giving us the history being the items.
Dick

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2021, 11:41:32 PM »
This is in response to a couple of the questions asked about the Tansel bag & horn set. The old newspaper picture below shows the grandfather of the man who sold the set to me. The grandfather was an avid gun collector, local items and civil war items, while the grandson that inherited the collection had less interest in antique firearms and related items... thus the reason for selling the bag & horn after he realized it might disappear someday if left in the museum. In the picture, you can clearly see the bag, horn, and powder measure, as well as the spike tomahawk that accompanied it, but was "lost" at the museum. Hopefully you can read some of the fascinating article if you blow it up. Some of the early family lore around the rifle and carved horn was fanciful, to say the least, but the ownership lines are good.

As to wear on the horn, the picture posted of the bag & horn reunited shows the wear side of the horn. While it may look like simply a glare across the horn's surface from too much light, that is actually the surface wear running across almost the entire surface of the horn. The eagle on this horn is very early Indiana, and rather primitive compared to later ones. It almost doesn't look like an eagle, perhaps more like a chubby chicken. For many years the horn was turned around, presumably because the other side was more attractive, and the "chubby chicken" eagle rubbed against the bag. The current horn orientation is how it has always been while in the museum, but the wear pattern shows the original family carried the horn turned the other way.

There is another old newspaper photo that shows these items, as well as the rifle. It will also get posted here, in case anyone has any ideas about the rifle.

Shelby Gallien


« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 11:45:33 PM by Tanselman »

Online Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17988
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2021, 01:49:01 AM »
 "Carved by an Indian" I wonder when/who discovered who really made and carved it? Thanks for posting the article.

    Tim 

Offline Algae

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2021, 04:59:02 AM »
Love this stuff... Thank you Shelby!

Al Jenkins

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2021, 05:34:04 AM »
Tim and others... the family still believed the horn was carved by a local Indian "way back when." I think they were slightly "offended" when I told them it was a professionally carved horn and gave them a copy of an old Muzzle Blasts article I had done, with a time-sequenced series of Tansel drawings, one of which was close to their horn in details. There are two different stories, totally made up, one about the horn and the other about the rifle that accompanied it. In shortened form they are:

1. According to an early Ratliff family owner of the bag & horn, a group of Indians came to their home out in the country. The Indians had never bothered them in the past, but the family was always "on edge" when they appeared. One Indian asked to borrow their bag & horn for a hunting trip, and the Ratliff family [first owners of the bag & horn] loaned it to them to avoid any tension or problem. A couple weeks later the Indians returned from the hunt and returned the bag & horn... with the horn now completely carved with the figures you now see. The family was told by the Indian who had borrowed the set, that he had taken it to the "tribe's best carver" and had it decorated as a "thank you" for letting them borrow it. [You can believe what you want, but I believe it was carved by Stark Tansel, second son of Francis, about 1834-1835 in Hendricks County, Indiana.]

2. The rifle that accompanied the bag & horn had conflicting stories in the several old newspaper articles. The most outlandish claim, in the earliest article, stated the gun had been a personal gift from Davy Crockett to the Ratliff family of North Carolina, when they decided to migrate west to Indiana. Another claim was that the Ratliffs brought the gun from North Carolina when they made the move about 1808. The poor images of the rifle in two of the old articles suggest, to me at least, a long, very slim rifle with straight comb and toe lines, possibly North Carolina, but with an apparent oval beaver-tail type cheekpiece, suggesting very late flint or more likely early percussion period. Family stories stated the rifle was a very high grade, expensive gun when new, and many people wanted to buy it. Perhaps that was true, since it was so easily sold years ago with a number of town folks wanting it, yet the bag & horn and other items went on into the museum. My interest was tweaked by the large, bright round inlay behind the cheekpiece. The only Midwest maker I know of who made slim rifles with large, round silver inlays behind the cheekpiece was John Small of Vincennes. Probably wishful thinking, but then, just maybe......

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 06:09:23 AM by Tanselman »

Online Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17988
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2021, 03:59:04 PM »
 Fascinating stories. TC

Offline Stillwater Dan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2021, 01:49:23 AM »
No matter what the real truth is it's all the more fascinating. It's great you could keep the bag and horn together and if the rifle and tomahawk could ever be reunited, well what a family reunion that would be.

Offline RobertS

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 381
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2021, 05:53:46 AM »
Great story,and pretty incredible.  Glad that you were paying attention and that it has a happy ending!  Thanks for sharing.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5076
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2021, 10:04:10 PM »
Source of confusion:

The way this is worded, Tansel bag and horn, seems to imply that Tansel also made the bag.
Otherwise, it should be original bag and Tansel horn.,

Is something being inferred in this combo?
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2021, 09:06:19 PM »
For those of you following the saga of this "reunited" Tansel bag & horn set, here are two additional pictures of the rifle that accompanied the bag & horn, and spike tomahawk. If you see anything in the rifle that stands out to you, please comment on it. I think we need to attribute the Davy Crockett connection as wishful thinking, but the rifle is interesting, long and slender.

Shelby Gallien




« Last Edit: December 02, 2021, 06:46:48 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Tecumseh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 84
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2021, 04:24:05 AM »
Great story and beautiful set, glad that they are in good hands now to further preserve these beautiful pieces.

Offline 2 shots

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
Re: An Original Tansel Bag & Horn Set, Separated and Reunited
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 06:18:30 AM »
truly amazing  story. thank you for saving it and sharing its story.