What are the faults of the L & R flintlocks? Technical question only!

[Rolf]

I have a Chamber's large lefthanded Siler. Jim Chambers locks are top quality. No argument there.

But, he makes only one lefthand lock. L&R offers 6 different lefthand locks. If you are a "hardcore" southpaw shooter, that counts alot. I couldn't hit barn door shooting rigth handed , even if my life depended on it. If you need something else than a large Siler, L&R is the only option aside from making it yourself.

If I had to chose between a chamber's virginia lock and a L&R Queen Ann lock, I'd take the L&R lock without hesitation. You can get it lefthanded. L&R are good locks, and getting a southpaw lock is worth more to me than the relativ difference in quaility.

Best regards

Rolfkt

[lew wetzel]

i have seen first hand the quality of the l&r manton....as me and ian pratt were discussing them at a gun building class he sugested to me not to buy a new one but look for one that had been manufactored a few years ago....so we proceeded over to see dan kindig and he pulled out a whole box of mantons so we could inspect them and i tell you i wouldnt have bought a single one out of the whole bunch...everyone had a crooked drilled and tapped hole...sloppy internals......seems this was a recent thing and hopefully since then they have corrected the problem...

[Dphariss]

How about the L&R Bedford locks, any experiences with those?  Got one sitting on the bench for a project and there's not many choices for Bedford styles.

The lockplate shape stinks.

They could have copied an original lock shape I suppose, like a Daniel Border I see in books, or if they did they could have copied a good looking one. But either they made their own or copied a poorly shaped one. In either case who ever did it is aesthetically challenged.
Other than the plate shape they are a L&R Manton and for a slim rifle the internals, tumbler etc, protrude too far into the wood.
I will agree that a good lock at 130 bucks is a bargain and Jim Chambers is to complimented.  It DOES take constant attention to keep quality up.
We have serious problems right now with constant price increases for everything.
I like to build locks from kits or just using some castings when I need something I can't buy.
Today's builder has a wide variety of lock shapes to choose from and this IS great. The prices are not bad. If I were to assemble a Siler kit, for example, and do it right, reamed tumbler holes, play with the springs etc etc. Then I should have 200-250 bucks for it. So getting a nice usable lock for a 120-140 is really a bargain.
The last siler I bought "whole" needed nothing at all in the set trigger rifle it went into. I would have needed some sear/trigger pull adjustment in single trigger gun and likely I did this as a matter of course. I hardened the plate at the tumbler hole but this is as it should be since hard plates are much tougher to engrave.
In my experience the "lock tuning challenged" individual is best served with one of Jim's locks.

Dan

[Jim Chambers]

Yep, I get beaten up all the time about not making more left hand locks.  I can certainly understand the need of those who absolutely must shoot a left hand gun.  But, the decision not to make all of our locks available in left hand is purely a financial matter.  It would cost over $100,000 in time and materials to tool up all of our locks in left hand.  I would never be able to sell enough left hand locks to recover even one quarter of that amount.  I love the sport/craft as much as anyone, but I just can't afford that large a lost.
L. C. Rice will tell you that in hind sight one of the worst decisions they ever made when they had the L&R Company was to start making left hand locks.

[Rolf]

I guess I've been lucky . I have three L&R Bailes flintlocks. One left handed and one right handed bought 2 years ago and one right handed bought this year.(I'm using them in pistols) There are no crooked drilled and taped holes. I've tried them all with flints. I get about 15 about  "shots", before they stop sparking.

I have a Chamber's lefthanded Siler, bought from Chambers (it's for a lefthanded Beck rifle). I've tried it the same way. It gives about 15-18 "shots" pr.flint before it stops sparking. I know I risk being burned for hearsay, but I can't say I've noticed any significant difference in these locks performance, so far. Quite honestly, I have no complaints with any of the locks I've got.

I can't understand, is why L&R is still in business, if they consistently produce the kind of garbage some people accuse them of.

Best regards
Rolfkt

[Mike Brooks]

As for the comment about the industry being in decline, from our view point it seems like things peaked (at least for us) around the year 2000.

Why don't you go ahead and cheer me up some more Mr. Chambers.....
 I have used some older L&R locks that worked just fine. Some of their models are junk. You just have to know which will work and which won't. I use mostly all Chambers locks and a couple of R.E. Davis' locks these days. They pretty much cover everything I build.
 Last year was a tough year(2007 & 2008) I was down to about a dozen gun orders. Since then things have picked up quite a bit and I have over 2X that amount on the books, many of them high dollar guns. Oddly, I can't seem to sell a finished ready to ship gun to save my life....

[northmn]

If L&R makes several different style locks, it may also stand to reason that some of them may not have been the best designed locks to begin with.  As to what many are saying, like them I consider a lock simnilar to a barrel blank.  That being said I have a Siler left hand assembled that works very well and does not look like it will need tuning.  I have purchased the kits and have had good results with them.  Just wish Jim would make the small siler in left hand.  My latest builds have been at designs that L&R makes locks for.  Now gravitating back to earlier designs and like the looks of the Chambers.  Also I shoot Southpaw and do not like shooting a righthanded flinter, left handed.

DP

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Oddly, I can't seem to sell a finished ready to ship gun to save my life....

Us either Mike - it's been a very strange year.  We usually have one or two assembled  in the white guns for sale and they go fast, but not this year.  We even have an original Jim Chambers gun for sale and no takers....  :-)

Back to L& R, I wish we made more left-handed locks too.  I have had to purchase a few from L&R for my rifle kit customers who want a left handed gun that we don't offer in let hand normally.  Each time I have LC buy the lock directly from L&R, tune it and then send it to me.  That way I can be insured that the quality is what we require for our customers.  The last one LC and I worked this way got returned to L&R and a new one sent out because even LC could not fix it.  I'm afraid I don't remember all the problems, for sure over sized holes, but seems like something else too (I'm afraid I only remember the delay in getting it to my customer.)  I know LC was very concerned about L&R at that point.  Sure wish he was on the chat!

[T*O*F]

I can't understand, is why L&R is still in business, if they consistently produce the kind of garbage some people accuse them of.

(just using Rolf's quote as an example)

This thread just bugs the $#*! out of me.  It asks for technical advice ONLY.  Everytime it comes up, it turns into a b**ch session about how lousy L&R locks are, which has nothing to do with the topic.  Frankly, I'm amazed that the moderators even allow it, in light of another recent conversation on barrels in which they chose to blank out the company's name.

In any business, the terminology "commercially acceptable" quality exists.  That quality is one which allows a company to remain in business and make a profit, with a low return rate for defects, usually less than 5%.  Nitpicking a particular model out of the 47 or so different models they make does not equal a lousy company.  There are thousands of locks on guns which have no problems.

Who makes the best locks is not germaine to the discussion, nor is your like or dislike of the shape of their locks.  It's what they sell.  It is the vocal minority who attempt to influence the majority, and this is so in any discussion.  The 80% in the middle are perfectly happy with their choices.

The comment was made about going thru a whole box of locks and they were all junk.  I have stood and watched a friend, who is on this board, sort thru Chamber's inventory on two different occasions and only find a single lock that met his specifications.  Does that mean that the rest of the Chambers locks were no good?  Definitely not...it just means that he found one which he wouldn't have to do additional work on to meet his standards.

I sincerely hope that the silent majority can recognize the folly of this whole discussion and that the moderators will be more selective when they choose to allow the bashing of any manufacturer.  Shame on all of you!!!!

[Stophel]

Technical answer:

L&R has some good designs (and some not so good), but I think the execution leaves a bit to be desired.  

I have found that the tumblers and sears have not been hardened nearly to the degree that I think they should be.  At least with the ones I have tried.  Something I can fix.  (On the other hand, their screws are incredibly hard, by the way, and difficult to anneal...).  The biggest problem I have is that the holes in the lockplates are cast to size and that's it.  The tumblers are cast to size, and that's it.  There is ZERO turning/reaming/fitting done.  When holes are oversize and tumblers are undersize (by my figuring), there is no way to get a smooth, snug fit (I suppose the hole could be bushed, but I ain't doin' that).

I don't like their flys (or is it "flies"?) either, but not for any technical reason.  They're just too dang small and hard for me to keep ahold of.  

They generally will work, though.  All it really has to do is make a spark!

Remember though, the average lock of 200+ years ago was probably pretty hastily assembled too.

[Rolf]

TOF, please reread both my posts.:  I wrote "If I had to chose between a chamber's virginia lock and a L&R Queen Ann lock, I'd take the L&R lock without hesitation. You can get it lefthanded. L&R are good locks, and getting a southpaw lock is worth more to me than the relativ difference in quaility." I have three L&R locks, and I like them.

Best regards

Rolfkt

[Sean]

TOF,

I do not see how this question can be addressed without discussing quality control and that is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss.  I don't think there is anyone in this discussion who wants L&R to go under, even their competitors.  I don't see any of this as attacking them.  If anything, having them read discussions like this might help them improve their quality and stay afloat.  A lot of guys who buy these locks are first time builders who get them because they are pre-inlet into the more inexpensive pre-carves with straight barrel channels.  When those people have good experiences with flintlocks, it means they keep on shooting and building them and everybody in the business and the hobby prospers from that.  Poor locks and poor reliability means a portion of those guys get frustrated, quit, and go back to their modern guns and take their $$ with them.  Personally, I'd really like to pick up one of their little Bailes locks for a future project, but right now I'll use something else or hold off until they sort out their problems.  I also really like to see someone making locks for late flint era guns, so I want to see L&R turn out a better product.

Now, I really appreciate these boards for helping disseminate information on QC issues.  But I am not the sort to take one bad review by a disgruntled customer as the gospel.  I respectfully think most of the people on here are smart enough to smell that sort of thing from a distance.  All of us try to give the businesses in this field the benefit of the doubt because they are not big faceless corporations.  They are small businesses run by good people who are hopefully adult enough to take constructive criticism to improve their products.

Sean

[T*O*F]

TOF, please reread both my posts.:

Rolf, I just quoted you to open my posting without regard to anything else you may have written.....hence my disclaimer of using it as an example.  In other words, your statement just provided an opeing for my thoughts.

[Stophel]

L&R is very happy to sell you as-cast parts.  I have built a very nice lock using their round faced plate, cock, and frizzen.  I've tried some experimenting with their "Classic" lockplate too, but that didn't work out...

[Acer Saccharum]

Stoph, the lock was the most likely part to be switched out once it got unreliable and could not be made reliable. How many locks were high quality, and how many were just serviceable? Don't know, but you don't see many guns with their original locks.

Thinking back, the heat treat is the biggest problem I've had. As you say Mr. Immel, all entirely within fixin.

Tom

[rich pierce]

This is a touchy area and I daresay that if the current owners of L&R were contributors here we'd apprach the subject differently.  I think it is up to those who post critiques to imagine that they are face to face with the makers whenever they offer critiques.  If comfortable, no problem.  I think the moderators in genral do a great job of allowing important discussion w/o letting things get out of hand.  We've seen a variety of experiences expressed here and everybody probably realizes there's nothing scientific about the sampling here.

[Roger B]

Tell you what, guys: I really appreciate the answers.  My question came from having a lock that looked pretty good to me, but was apparently known to have some (perhaps) design flaws that could be improved.  It was my intention to go back with the information, look at the lock, & see what I could learn.  What I should have asked was "What can be done to improve on the L & R Durs Egg?"
Since it seems to work pretty well, I doubt that I do anything to it if I decide to use it.  Ain't nothin perfect.
Roger B.

[Blackpowder Barbie]

TOF, I have no shame here for anything that I have posted because I don't find this discussion to be one sided or an attack on L&R at all.  In fact I went back and counted how many posts were all negative, how many were all positive and how many were in between/just technical.  As far as I can see they all equal out the same all pros (~10), all cons (~7) and just tech (~10).  No unfair here and might I add very civil.  You can not discuss technical problems without taking into consideration the quality of the parts themselves, the quality of the builder himself, and the quality of the initial design/architecture.  This thread in no way has bashed L&R it is rather an open discussion on their products.

Rich, I would hope that if this same discussion came up about our products (and you are ALL welcome to discuss them on here) that you all would talk as openly about our products as you have about L&R's.  A good business owner needs to be aware of product issues and consumer opinions.  I think civil discussions like this only serve to help a business improve their products and/or to know where the public needs to be further educated on technical aspects.  If L&R has technical issues I would think that they would want to know so that they can work on them. 

In fact to be even more clear about where I stand with them I hope they take all of this into consideration because we by no means want L&R to go away.  They offer many great lock designs that we don't.  They are very much needed in this industry.  Yes, we make a living at this, but our passion lies with the guns themselves and the preservation of what we deem a vital part of our nation's history.  To see all the different guns that you guys replicate today is an awesome feat.  The thought that we can help with this is even better.  The fact that there is enough business for all of us lock builders to make a living at it is very humbling.  In case you don't get it, without you guys the customers, we don't exist.  Keeping you guys satisfied with the products you buy has to be one of the main goals of any company that plans on staying in business.   

[SCLoyalist]

Would it be possible for someone knowledgeable in analyzing a lock's function, deciding what its problems are and laying out a course of corrective action  to write a basic tutorial for inclusion in ALR's tutorial section?   If I were to send a lock I was dissatisified with to a crackerjack, recognized lock tuner with a general description of "poor sparking" or "short flint life",  I assume he'd perform some short finite checks on the lock before deciding that the mainspring strength, or the frizzen hardness, or hammer geometry, etc needed attention.    It sounds like any lock from any manufacturer  is equally liable to need some tuning (although I confess I fall into the camp that believes L&R may be equaller than most in that regard). Having some basic knowledge of an orderly approach to figure out what to look for would be quite helpful.    There have no doubt been many locks that the owner made a wrong guess as to what the lock needed, botched his fix and introduced two problems.

Just a thought.   SCL

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Done!  I put in the Tutorials the info we give out on what makes a Quality Flintlock.  Please ask questions and we'll try to answer!
Thanks!

[SCLoyalist]

Ask and ye shall be answered, seek and ye shall find,  I reckon!   Thanks.

[Dphariss]

I can't understand, is why L&R is still in business, if they consistently produce the kind of garbage some people accuse them of.

(just using Rolf's quote as an example)

This thread just bugs the $#*! out of me.  It asks for technical advice ONLY.  Everytime it comes up, it turns into a b**ch session about how lousy L&R locks are, which has nothing to do with the topic.  Frankly, I'm amazed that the moderators even allow it, in light of another recent conversation on barrels in which they chose to blank out the company's name.

In any business, the terminology "commercially acceptable" quality exists.  That quality is one which allows a company to remain in business and make a profit, with a low return rate for defects, usually less than 5%.  Nitpicking a particular model out of the 47 or so different models they make does not equal a lousy company.  There are thousands of locks on guns which have no problems.

Who makes the best locks is not germaine to the discussion, nor is your like or dislike of the shape of their locks.  It's what they sell.  It is the vocal minority who attempt to influence the majority, and this is so in any discussion.  The 80% in the middle are perfectly happy with their choices.

The comment was made about going thru a whole box of locks and they were all junk.  I have stood and watched a friend, who is on this board, sort thru Chamber's inventory on two different occasions and only find a single lock that met his specifications.  Does that mean that the rest of the Chambers locks were no good?  Definitely not...it just means that he found one which he wouldn't have to do additional work on to meet his standards.

I sincerely hope that the silent majority can recognize the folly of this whole discussion and that the moderators will be more selective when they choose to allow the bashing of any manufacturer.  Shame on all of you!!!!

Its impossible to tell someone how to fix a lock when in most cases one a cannot know what to do until you have it in your hands so giving detailed correct for that particular situation technical advice is all but impossible.

 Its not just L&R. I bought a $100 set of castings from the Rifle Shoppe waited over a year and then made replacements for all the internal parts but the sear and sear spring so its not anything unusual. But the L&R was supposed to be a working lock.

People have a responsibility to point out faulty products. Why should I be ashamed? From my point of view L&R should be.

I do not expect a perfect lock for 120-130 bucks but a "decent" lock  is certainly doable in all regards. However, considering the length of time L&R has been making locks  the purchaser has a right to expect the application of some expertise in making the item. Especially when buying by mail. I expected to have to do some work on the lock when I got it. But I was pretty disappointed even with this already in mind. Its sad as much as anything.
So far as lock shape...
Lines are everything on a Kentucky rifle so if the lines are not right nothing else is either. My point is that could have easily have simply traced a photo in any one of several books and produced a much more pleasing lock. Its almost as though they went out of their way to make it wrong.
The lock I cited as poorly shaped is not the only one on the market that fails in this regard to some extent.

What other people will accept does not mean I am required to accept things I PAID FOR that I see as faulty without comment.

Dan

[J.D.]

 But the L&R was supposed to be a working lock.

I do not expect a perfect lock for 120-130 bucks but a "decent" lock  is certainly doable in all regards. However, considering the length of time L&R has been making locks  the purchaser has a right to expect the application of some expertise in making the item.

I couldn't have said it better, Dan. I will admit that I let my frustrations come thorough when talking about certain locks, and the "Early Classic" in particular. It is very frustrating to have a lock that is, IMHO, not as reliable as it should be and not know how to fix it....and I do like to work on locks. I just moved the frizzen spring, on a Late Ketland,  forward a coupla tenths, to get better action from the roller and frizzen, so I'm not averse to working on locks.

I DO like the challenge of making a decent lock better, and a poorly designed lock at least decent, but I'm stumped on the Early classic. There was a time when it did perform OK; Not great, but OK. Now it barely functions OK.

A poster on another forum has a L&R Queen Anne lock that stopped throwing sparks into the pan. He has several hundred shots on this lock and was very satisfied with it until the last month, or so. He says that it does spark, but the sparks go everywhere but the pan. He reports a rate of 30-40% failure to fire, on the last few range sessions, even when using a variety of new flints.  I dunno, something changed, and it is probably something he is doing differently, but who knows.

That said, I don't want L&R to go away. I would like for the owners to talk to LC, Jim, or someone who can help them correct their QC issues, so they can produce a decent lock that, at least, works right out of the box, without a major rebuild.

I also admit that I haven't used a wide variety of L&R locks. Those
I have used, from around 1990 on, have required some creative adjustments to make 'em work the way I think they should. Some required replacement parts. Some required heat treating. However, IMHO, there just wasn't much hope for the Manton that was returned a coula years ago.

Maybe I'm too picky? Maybe I have too high expectations, as to the quality of components I buy? Maybe it's too much to expect an assembled lock to work decently, right out of the box.

God bless

[JMatley]

I am really not trying to add any additional fire to this discussion but regarding L&R locks I’d like to tell about my own experience because I have been very disappointed and I’d like to make a point. 

First, I apologize to the community for sounding preachy but I’d like to throw out a definition of what quality actually is as a starting point.  In a nutshell:

“The quality of any product or service is defined by the customer.  As customers we want products or services to meet our expectations at a cost that represents some sort of value”.

This definition of quality applies to all products.
 
On a recommendation I purchased a Durs Egg caplock for my current project.  After I began to polish the lock plate I noticed that it was pitted and upon closer inspection also warped.  I realized that I had a choice to either flatten the lock plate or remove the pitted area but not both, there just isn’t enough metal.  I chose to flatten the plate and hope the pits aren’t noticeable after browning. 

I also found that the sear screw was threaded too far up the shank so that when it is fully tight the bridle was forced against the tumbler, pinching it and causing it to bind.  Yes I know that I could back off on the screw but it would never be truly tight which would just bug me so instead I chose to make another screw with a shoulder on it to eliminate the binding.

After making the new screw I discovered that the fit of the sear on the screw was sloppy causing it to slide back and forth and also twist when the sear spring was installed.  I had to make a .013 inch spacer to keep the sear up against the plate so that it wouldn’t move or twist.

The point that I wanted to throw out is that we all expect a new car, washer or toaster to work as expected when we purchase it.  So why would we expect anything less from a lock manufacturer.  I don’t think that it is too much for any of us to ask for a lock that will work “decently”, right out of the box. 

So, did this Durs Egg meet my expectations?  No.  Is it a quality product?  Not based on my limited experience.  Will I purchase another L&R product?  Maybe.  Could L&R correct quality related issues?  Sure they could if they chose to – Many other companys over the years have done this and completely reversed customers perceptions of them.  L&R could do it also.

Just my thoughts on this rainy morning.

Jim

[J.D.]

IMHO, making new screw with the correct length of thread, or removing material from the bottom of the screw head, to prevent binding, is common to nearly all production locks. IMHO, that isn't a big deal.

I would suggest making a new sear screw of a shank diameter to give .001" or so clearance to the sear screw hole. It will require a shoulder with a smaller diameter threaded shank. The shoulder will  bottom out on the lockplate to prevent the binding you mention. The larger diameter shank will eliminate the slop you found in the sear.

IMHO, that is only a small, but often an important part of lock tuning.

God bless