What are the faults of the L & R flintlocks? Technical question only!

[Acer Saccharum]

IMHO, making new screw with the correct length of thread, or removing material from the bottom of the screw head, to prevent binding, is common to nearly all production locks. IMHO, that isn't a big deal.....

This is not just L&R, it is common to almost ALL production locks. I have made new sear screws for almost all the locks I have used. The screw binds the sear when you snug it up. So many shooters leave the screw loose so the sear doesn't bind, but then you have inconsistent let off.

When making the new screw I can also make it fit the bore of the sear to a T. When tightened down, the sear swings freely, with no wobble.

tom

[JMatley]

This is my first non-kit project and since I'm new to all of this I've viewed everything as a real learning experience.  In the grand scheme of things I agree with you completely that the problems with my lock were minor and there certainly are a number of ways to correct them.  Some of which I hadn't thought of and would have made other things easier had I asked the group for help.  What I felt compelled to do was just provide a comment to your previous post in that I also feel that it isn't too much for us to ask for any product to work decently right out of the box, regardless of the manufacturer, and my reasons why.

Jim

[Dale Halterman]

What I should have asked was "What can be done to improve on the L & R Durs Egg?"

I have an L&R Durs Egg on a rifle I built maybe 15 years ago and am very satisfied with it now. The rifle was my first flintlock, and I didn't know squat about locks at the time I built it, so I used the Durs Egg as purchased. Since then, I have done three things to it that have improved its performance greatly.

First, polish all the internal parts where they rub together, particularly the tumbler/ plate contact points.

Second, the sear was not a tight fit on the sear screw. I was advised to solder in a bushing and ream it to fit, but, being lazy, I just wrapped some brass shim stock around the screw. Helped a lot.

Last, the lock only gave me about a half dozen shoots per flint without attention. Under advice from some one on this board, I ground off the "hump" on the frizzen spring so the frizzen could open easier. Now I get enough shoots out of each flint that I don't bother counting.

Dale H

[Roger Fisher]

I have a durs egg on a smoothy.  She is truly a fine sparker and I like the short hammer throw.  Sear seems a tad soft.  I'm on the third main spring, second feather spring and second lower bridle screw...So I carry spares I figure no biggie!

I have shot thousands of rounds thru her and she is my main line smoothy!

Now all that being said meaning I forgot all about the ittybitty sized hammer screw that catches/caught only 2 threads in to the tumbler shaft and this 'was' with a full press fit of said hammer onto the shaft........ After I lost the hammer after coming down a mountain (well okay a hill ) walk and crawling back up with my nose working like a beagle's I finally found the thingeee where I fired the last shot!
I then 'adjusted' the hammer thickness so the screw took much better purchase on the shaft okay ever since...!   Anybody else have that problem

[Jim Thomas]

I have a durs egg on a smoothy.  She is truly a fine sparker and I like the short hammer throw.  Sear seems a tad soft.  I'm on the third main spring, second feather spring and second lower bridle screw...So I carry spares I figure no biggie!

I have shot thousands of rounds thru her and she is my main line smoothy!

1st place in the smoothbore agg at the Pa State Shoot......    She's a winner for sure Roger!   

[Jim Filipski]

Ok For what it is worth:
No lock no matter what brand comes out of my shop without being reworked. It is part of the build ...period.

When you have to work with what you got ( based on what a client wants -for instance) You need to make it work correctly. A purchased lock is just an assembly of parts and you should do your thing to make it work the way you know you want it to. Yes some require  a lot of work, some not so much but all require some personal tuning by the "smith" That's your job. Yes I have my favorites but over the years I have tuned many plain old ...locks(?) even CVA's into custom pieces. You know what it needs to do........ you just have to make it do it. The manufacturers can't do all the work for you.
Jim

[Dphariss]

Ok For what it is worth:
No lock no matter what brand comes out of my shop without being reworked. It is part of the build ...period.

When you have to work with what you got ( based on what a client wants -for instance) You need to make it work correctly. A purchased lock is just an assembly of parts and you should do your thing to make it work the way you know you want it to. Yes some require  a lot of work, some not so much but all require some personal tuning by the "smith" That's your job. Yes I have my favorites but over the years I have tuned many plain old ...locks(?) even CVA's into custom pieces. You know what it needs to do........ you just have to make it do it. The manufacturers can't do all the work for you.
Jim

It is true that I rework almost everything.
But the original maker should at least do a good enough job so as to not make it more difficult to fix.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I am really not trying to add any additional fire to this discussion but regarding L&R locks I’d like to tell about my own experience because I have been very disappointed and I’d like to make a point. 

First, I apologize to the community for sounding preachy but I’d like to throw out a definition of what quality actually is as a starting point.  In a nutshell:

“The quality of any product or service is defined by the customer.  As customers we want products or services to meet our expectations at a cost that represents some sort of value”.

This definition of quality applies to all products.
 
<snip>
Just my thoughts on this rainy morning.

Jim

Boy this is true. The funny part is that ML shooters/makers will be just happy as a pig in s**t with something the BPCR people is used to build guns for would not accept and would use for a door stop if they had to keep it.

Dan

[Birddog6]

I expect the holes to be drilled straight in the locks. They are not.
I expect the frizzen to be hardened correctly. They are not.
I expect the springs to be made without cracks in the. They are not.
I expect the springs to be hardened & tempered correctly. They are not.
I expect to get more than 8-9 shots from a flint, which by the way, L&R told me was "Normal Flint Usage"


I will tell ya right off I don't like lock work. If I did I would be building locks.  I don't mind polishing & stoning & tuning one up, but it just totally ticks me off to have to redrill all the holes & retap them, reharden all of the parts, retemper the springs, buy new springs cause the originals are cracked, get the new ones & they are cracked as well, set the lock & build aside & go to Friendship & have to sort thru 50 of them to find 1-2 not cracked, etc. I bought a finished lock assembly & it should at least be assembled correctly with good quality parts.  And when I call for a replacement part, I expect that part to be top notch, not be cracked or misdrilled or improperly threaded or undersize..........  It should be correct, not have to buy 4 of them to get one right.

I hope I never have to use another L&R. And if I have a customer that insist using one, I tell him he needs to find another builder, as I am not building it.  He can change locks or styles, but no, I am not building another one with a L&R as long as they make locks like they do now. I like building rifles & really enjoy the work. And I am not going to let a third rate lock ruin 3 weeks of the build for me screwing around with it.  

Now, there are good L&R locks out there, cause out of about 10 I actually had one of them was a good one right off.  So I know they were a few of them made & I have seen a few of them work consistently & flawlessly.  But getting a good lock from them in the past 10 years is like bobbing for a perfect apple, or getting any quality repair parts, or getting any worthy assistance from them, in my experience is not gonna happen & I just save myself the aggravation.  

 And as long as people buy them & make excuses for them, they will not change.  Why should they ? Just slap them together & ship them out........     Lots of guys out there will work 3 weeks & buy $60 worth of new parts just to save $10 on the initial price of the lock.........              
 And on the other hand you have  guys that just love to totally rebuild locks.......  That is OK if that is what ya like to do.    I don't.  
OK.... fire away.........

[Robby]

I'm left handed and have used many Bailes and Egg locks from L&R. They were left handed and had the look I was after. I did do some minor tuning on these locks, but even if I had not, they would have performed as should be expected, they cleaned up nice and work fine, to this day. The last rifle I built, I thought long and hard about using an L&R lock, based on comments about their quality, of late, read here. In the end, I figured I would order one from them directly, there by avoiding someone doing poor assemblage, I mean, I'll get right from the source. It took a while to get, I don't mind that, that means they are busy, and thats a good thing. When I got it, I was more than ready and didn't look it over, I just took it apart and did all the things you do, including modifying the plate profile, engraving and bluing. I didn't reassemble it till I was finished with the gun. Upon reassembly I found the tumbler bore through the plate was way over sized, screwing down a flint, you'd think you are going to twist the cock right out of it, the bore through the frizzen was also oversized to the point that it rattles around. there are other minor things, but there is no way they could have put this lock together, and not seen those things. That is what ticks me off the most! I've been a good customer of theirs', and for them to send something like that out is maddening and disappointing. I like L&R locks, they offer things that no one else does. I really hope they turn things around and get back on track,but for now, I'll take a pass on them. If they ever needed a reason to get things squared away, maybe some feedback from this forum will do the trick. I for one, am pulling for them.
Robby

[lew wetzel]

great thread,and i feel this is not a thrashing on l&r....you get what you pay for in life....like buying craftsmen or harbor frieght...point is there seems to be a quality issue at l&r and there seems to be some people who will stick with them and their products because of past service and the way thier locks were made....new ownership of a business will either make or brake a company...as i understand its tough to keep quality high when your just trying to keep the lights on...if i pay $120-130.00 for a lock,then i want it ti shower sparks......i dont mind polishing and reshaping.but for that amount of money it better be mechanically sound...i have been collecting russ hamm locks and have a few of them.pulled them out last night and inspected the internals.....compared them to a chambers and re davis.wish i would have had a l&r to compare also....mechanically sound,straight drilled and tapped holes.no binding,frizzen sits flush with the pan....and good sparkers everyone of them....would i buy a used hamm lock over a new l&r........maybe.....if i have to fix something i bought i would rather buy used than new......with buying used you already know you will be re-working something....with new......well its new!!!!you shouldnt have to re-work anything mechanically.....only cosmetically to your own personal choice..... 

[elk killer]

i would very much rather hear Barbies nice sweet voice on the other end of the line...
than some grumpy guys voice telling me im a idiot,,for even taking a L&R apart to install it..!!!
simple as that.....

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

All I will say is that I have had three Chambers locks and one Caywood Wilson trade lock. All of them have worked perfectly right out of the box.  No miss sized holes, good bearing surfaces, polished .....  I have no complaints.  I do buy directly from the source. 


But you know I have 4 Colerain barrels.... all of which arrived with breech plugs fitted perfectly and perfectly smooth bores..... I have nothing against any of the other barrel makers, just that these were available and fit the pattern.....  So maybe I am just lucky so far?   One of these days I will get to buy a Getz barrel just so I can brag about it.......and keep Don happy.

If I were a professional buider, I think I would expect any lock I bought to require minimal tuning unless I was choosing to build from a set of castings.... time is money. 

[Frank]

I expect the holes to be drilled straight in the locks. They are not.
I expect the frizzen to be hardened correctly. They are not.
I expect the springs to be made without cracks in the. They are not.
I expect the springs to be hardened & tempered correctly. They are not.
I expect to get more than 8-9 shots from a flint, which by the way, L&R told me was "Normal Flint Usage"


I will tell ya right off I don't like lock work. If I did I would be building locks.  I don't mind polishing & stoning & tuning one up, but it just totally ticks me off to have to redrill all the holes & retap them, reharden all of the parts, retemper the springs, buy new springs cause the originals are cracked, get the new ones & they are cracked as well, set the lock & build aside & go to Friendship & have to sort thru 50 of them to find 1-2 not cracked, etc. I bought a finished lock assembly & it should at least be assembled correctly with good quality parts.  And when I call for a replacement part, I expect that part to be top notch, not be cracked or misdrilled or improperly threaded or undersize..........  It should be correct, not have to buy 4 of them to get one right.

I hope I never have to use another L&R. And if I have a customer that insist using one, I tell him he needs to find another builder, as I am not building it.  He can change locks or styles, but no, I am not building another one with a L&R as long as they make locks like they do now. I like building rifles & really enjoy the work. And I am not going to let a third rate lock ruin 3 weeks of the build for me screwing around with it.  

Now, there are good L&R locks out there, cause out of about 10 I actually had one of them was a good one right off.  So I know they were a few of them made & I have seen a few of them work consistently & flawlessly.  But getting a good lock from them in the past 10 years is like bobbing for a perfect apple, or getting any quality repair parts, or getting any worthy assistance from them, in my experience is not gonna happen & I just save myself the aggravation.  

 And as long as people buy them & make excuses for them, they will not change.  Why should they ? Just slap them together & ship them out........     Lots of guys out there will work 3 weeks & buy $60 worth of new parts just to save $10 on the initial price of the lock.........              
 And on the other hand you have  guys that just love to totally rebuild locks.......  That is OK if that is what ya like to do.    I don't.  
OK.... fire away.........

DITTO

[gander]

I build a few double rifles so I have to use L&R for matching locks. I just figure the lock tuneing & any extra parts into the price of the build. Just before Bill Cox sold L&R, I as well as a friend purchased large quanties for fear of quality issues being worse than what they are now. As far as the muzzloading industry going down hill, very few young people are getting interested in muzzleloading. Most shooters are 40 & up. More of the older shooters are dieing off. Just the way it is.

[smshea]

Sorry folks. If I was a first time builder or even a five or ten time builder and I read this thread , I might never buy a L&R lock . I openly admit to being a Chambers fan first and formost when the project allows it and I have the luxury of looking through a few L&Rs to find the one I like best when I need one but I have to do that for the other companies as well. Heck , I might even go so far as to say they are my third favorite of the big three lock makers..... but there are only three and I don't think any of us wants to see less lock choices.

 We are worried about muzzleloading being on the decline(Frankly I'm not seeing that Around here at least... but whatever) and we are beating up on a main supplier pretty badly. I don't have any rifles sitting around for sale at the moment with L&R locks on them but If I did (and Ill bet some of you reading this do) Id be *#)*^~. I believe there are people who wont give L&R a second look based on this thread and that's crazy .... you read Barbie say they use them for kits when need be and have no plans to tool up to build leftys  .....sometimes you just need what they have and you cant get it elsewhere  or don't want to make it yourself.  I wish every lock I buy would be perfect out of the bag  but that just aint how building muzzleloaders is.

 Maybe we could worry about something like .... what do we do when Reeves Georing isn't making castings anymore and we all have to pay 1/3ed the price of a lock for a buttplate casting that's half as nice as what we are getting now....hum? MORE CHIOCES NOT LESS!      Lets just be very carefull

[Dphariss]

One more thing, at least

I just got an order for a pistol. Its based on the one I just built with Manton/Bailes.
I will likely use the Manton on the up coming project though I may use some Bailes parts and make a loc form an percussion lock plate I have in a drawer.
I have a rifle with a shop made lock, the D King flint Hawken, Don put a L&R Manton frizzen on the one he bought back and told me to do the same and gave me the frizzen to use. It has reduced flint breakage greatly and I think it sparks better.

With all its faults, which may very from lock to lock, the "Manton" is an excellent English design from 1780s, it hardly jars the gun at all even a pistol. Be a great Southern Mtn Rifle lock too.  Its a little long for a pistol but it will work. If anyone uses this lock you gotta drill the RR hole angled away from the lock since the parts are "deep" and on small barrels the mainspring may get into the rod hole.



 I narrow the tumbler for the same reason. It can get into the tang screw, BTDT.


If makers want variety in the locks they use or want a lock with a slightly different shape they have to search for the style they want. I want to build a pair of J. Armstrong's for my wife and daughter and want to use a lock more like the longer style he used. I suspect he either made these or had someone in the area make them. The later Bedford grew from these locks I believe.
So all my whining a sniveling aside I am not prepared to throw L&R under the bus. I would MUCH, MUCH prefer the criticism such as we see here cause them to do some modifications and do more quality control.

ML decline? It fell into the sub-basement in the west in many places as BPCR grew in popularity. But a few diehards hung one even when heavily involved with the "dark side" (  ) of BP shooting as I was. I still shoot BPCR and shot a 100 shot offhand Schuetzen match yesterday with my BPCR  silhouette rifle.
But at least I got the 15 year old ammo shot up.

Dan

[flehto]

First off, it seems a  lock that functions well  has to have a sound design and secondly has to have quality produced parts  that are properly  heat treated and the most important factor.... repeatable, quality  assembly. Dedicated tooling assures exact hole locations in the plate { drill jigs} and  the tumbler should have a grinding fixture for exact sizing of the 2 spindles. Otherwise, much depends on  consistently produced castings. I've worked for many different companies in a tool engineering capacity which also involved  quality assurance and the most important factor in producing a quality product, was whether the "head guy" was convinced that quality was the way to go in lieu of the usual American quest for short term profits.  W/o this conviction or philosophy of the "head guy", we've seen many companies go under and deservedly so.  Dedicated tooling to produce quality locks isn't that expensive and surely is superior to  less controlled methods ......Fred

[Roger B]

I took the Durs Egg in question, put a new English flint in it & began sparking it this morning.  The lock was unoiled, straight out of the bag.  I got tired of sparking it at about 30 repetitions with no undue wear to the flint.  I then checked all of the internal screws, & sure enough, if you tighten down the sear screw all the way, the lock will not stay in half or full cock   Yes, the sear screw needs a collar on it to bear against the back of the lock plate as mentioned above.  I find this unacceptable, though the lock does not become "junk" from that failing.  We shall see what they do about it.  I suppose some Loc-tite might also fix the problem.
Roger B.

[Dphariss]

I took the Durs Egg in question, put a new English flint in it & began sparking it this morning.  The lock was unoiled, straight out of the bag.  I got tired of sparking it at about 30 repetitions with no undue wear to the flint.  I then checked all of the internal screws, & sure enough, if you tighten down the sear screw all the way, the lock will not stay in half or full cock   Yes, the sear screw needs a collar on it to bear against the back of the lock plate as mentioned above.  I find this unacceptable, though the lock does not become "junk" from that failing.  We shall see what they do about it.  I suppose some Loc-tite might also fix the problem.
Roger B.

Virtually every lock you buy is like this.
Making a new screw is the answer.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Virtually every lock you buy is like this.

Agreed.

[J.D.]

Virtually every lock you buy is like this.

Agreed.

As mentioned, making a new screw is the best fix, but sometimes, relieving the underside of the screw head a few thou is enough to prevent binding.

It all depends on how close to the correct length the unthreaded shank might be, and how thick the screw cap is.

God bless

[Acer Saccharum]

Not to diverge too greatly from the topic, but I have learned over the years how to fix a funky lock, and now look upon them as raw material for a gun. A lock that is close to the right style or lockplate size is the one I'm going to use regardless of the manufacturer. L&R adds a lot to my choices, and combined with Chambers and Davis, we are pretty lucky with choices these days. Let's try to keep them alive.

[Randy Hedden]

Not to diverge too greatly from the topic, but  <snip>

Tom,

Don't worry about diverging from the topic.  This thread took a 90 degree turn way back on page one or two and has been turning and twisting ever since. 

Randy Hedden

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well it musn't be boring!!  

The struggle I have, is that a hobbyist without a machine shop or an acetylene torch/anvil..... I need to be able to buy parts that I can count on to work... or else I have to pay someone else to build and tune the lock....

I think its just cheaper to buy from........... 

So if I need a lock that I have buy as castings....who are the quality lock builders out there who will build tune and harden etc for fair price??