Thoughts on Kit Guns-Update

[t.caster]

The side plate was closely inlet already so that means I can't' move the lock very much at all or the lock bolts won't line up properly. So I have now moved the barrel back .170" and have shaped the tang and getting that inletted to depth. Looks like it will work OK now once I get it in. I have enough web between the barrel channel and ramrod hole to inlet the barrel deeper if need be.
I have done at least 4 Chambers kits (all different styles) and all of them had this situation. Jim says to notch the plug....I just don't like doing that!

[smart dog]

Back to the OP's problem.  Move the barrel back as far as possible.  Shorten the plug. Move the lock as far foreword as much as possible.  It bothers me to suggest it but, notch the plug face. 

OOOOrr???  Make a new plug with longer threads.  Tap the barrel deeper.  Run the liner into the side of the threads CVA style.  Make a powder chamber in the plug face.   

Hi,
The builder, T. Caster, does not need any building advice.  He knows what he is doing.  He is just frustrated that the basic fitting of key parts is often poor or careless on many kits.  That quality control and precision is one feature where Jim and Katherine Kibler shine. 

Hi Tom,
Don't notch the plug because it can lead to unreliable ignition if powder fouling builds up after a few shots.  Instead of notching the plug, you need to grind a cavity in the breech plug with the notch to make it work reliably.  IMO it is better to move the barrel back to position it correctly with the lock. I've successfully worked through these issues but I have to wonder why the makers cannot fix this.

dave

[Scota4570]

"Jim says to notch the plug....I just don't like doing that!"

Oh my!  That settles any desire I had to explore a Chambers kit. 

[bob in the woods]

Tom, I'm surprised that your kits had these problems.  I just finished a N.E fowling gun a few months ago, and aside from squaring up the breach, and doing some scraping on the barrel channel, it went together well.  Maybe the stock wood is a bit more generous in this model , allowing the barrel to move back a bit without trouble ?     Aside from the E.Marshall, I've not had any other of his rifle kits...just smoothbores.    I'm anxiously waiting on the release of Jim Kibler's new smoothbore kit, which is apparently not too far off.  Otherwise I like the freedom of building from a plank.

[Bob Roller]

I've have built 3 N.E fowling guns, 1 Officer's fusil, 1 Pennsylvania smoothbore, and one Edward Marshall rifle.....all from kits by Chambers.   Never had a problem with any of them.  I still recommend them to others , especially since Mr Kibler's kits are as yet restricted to two models.
If I ever did have a complaint, I'd first contact the seller and see what the response was.

The correct response would be,"We have no idea about measurement or the relation of parts"
Bob Roller

[flehto]

When starting to build, my first was from a blank...... then tried 2 precarves and then went back  to blanks. Some precarves had major mistakes and were returned  and the irritating minor mistakes were fixed. Later on assembled 2 Chambers' parts sets which had only minor, sloppy mistakes....mainly the RR inlets had runovers and  were epoxied for sharp corners. So 95% of my builds were from blanks.....Fred

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've built quite a few Chambers' parts sets, and sets from TOW as well, and have never run into a problem that I couldn't solve, all without having to think outside the box...simply routine gunbuilding.  But Kibler's sets have changed the way we now look at these pre-carved rifles.  There is no reason to disparage Chambers' kits...they are very high quality and build into remarkablely great rifles/smoothies.

Here's the last one I did, a left handed Penn Fowler with both a smooth and rifled barrel...

[Scota4570]

"I've built quite a few Chambers' parts sets, and sets from TOW as well,..."

Is notching the plug an expected step of a chambers parts set build?

[rfd]

If one is a total newbie to anything about trad side lock long guns and has little to know smarts about building such guns or the tooling required, get an offshore "screwdriver" kit.

If one is a relative newbie to lock long guns, and has some smarts and tooling about smithing these firearms, stick with a Kibler kit.

All other kits will more than likely require a higher degree of knowledge, craftsmanship, and tooling.

[thecapgunkid]

Funny how everybody seems to have been down the same trail with different results.   Chambers Kits are pretty good, but I'll go to Pecatonica every time when I want to do something special because I would rather not have the lock inletted, and the stock comes squared in the forestock which helps drilling cross pins.

The long and the short of it is I will never have the tools or the time to build from scratch, and I admire those who do.

[t.caster]

I've built quite a few Chambers' parts sets, and sets from TOW as well, and have never run into a problem that I couldn't solve, all without having to think outside the box...simply routine gunbuilding.  But Kibler's sets have changed the way we now look at these pre-carved rifles.  There is no reason to disparage Chambers' kits...they are very high quality and build into remarkablely great rifles/smoothies.
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D.Taylor, well stated! Problem solving is something I've done all my life in the engineering field, and especially by thinking outside the box! In the end these quality kits always turned out quite beautiful.

[smylee grouch]

" simply routine gunbuilding " is a good way to look at it. If you want to make guns you have to at times sit down and figure out how to get through some of the unique problems that can pop up when building these unique guns. A lot of the times the solutions are simple after some reflection.

[WadePatton]

The low low price of a parts set can be quite overshadowed by the several hundreds of dollars required by some gunstockers to make them right for you.

I've seen John working on a few and he always said he charged too little to fix the "kits" someone else started. I think he was getting 500 at that time.  As I understand it, there's no shortage of that type of work. I plan to avoid it. 

But I don't mind one bit getting a barrel let in by a pro.  That's a tip I picked up from pro builders!

[Dwshotwell]

I’m still new to all this. I’ve built two Kibler kits, but my first kit was… not a Kibler. There were a lot of things wrong with it and since I had no idea what was wrong, I went happily along my way for a while before I realized the problems. Those troubles were how I ultimately ended up on this forum, trying to figure out what wasn’t working.

I have a feeling my situation is fairly common: I knew I wanted to build a rifle. I started poking around for kits, reviewed a few and made a choice based on a combination of things - price was one but not the only factor. I was already familiar with TOTW at that point, and a few other sources, but had never heard of Kibler and knew about Chambers locks but not kits. I sought help AFTER I was stuck, instead of looking here for information on choices. I had it in my head that, since I had built a CVA when I was 16 I could handle a long - rifle kit just as easily. If I had landed here first, it would have saved me some headaches.

I’m not sure what can be done about that other than you veterans keep giving good advice and hope folks find it. Also, that was four years ago and maybe more “word” is out there now.

As a side note… between my two Kibler builds I bought a kit from a reputable source and have had nothing but trouble with it, to the point that I may end up buying a blank and re-purposing the parts. The lock inlet doesn’t come close to lining up with the barrel, which I’ve already lowered quite a bit. The wood had a severe twist in the in the forend, so that just to try and get the barrel inletted I had to clamp it tight working forward an inch at a time. I’m pretty sure the stock I got would never have made it out of the shop if not for the 2020 Covid supply crunch. I’m taking a class in 2022 to learn to build from a blank and I’ll wait until after that to decide what to do with those parts.

 

[rich pierce]

I think folks are not asking that all kits be as close to finished as Kibler kits, but that known, recurring issues with some kits should be remedied. I think that’s fair. Professional and master-level longrifle makers who see the issues as “no big deal” are in the same category as professional rock guitarists. They think playing Little Wing, or Stairway to Heaven, or Sweet Melissa (choose your faves but let’s not derail) is a piece of cake, mastered in a half hour. It is for them. But if kits did not have repetitive flaws, more beginner builders would have success and enjoy the experience.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have never notched a breech plug on any rifle I've built, from scratch or from a parts set.  But I will confess to shortening breech plug journals from 5/8" + to 1/2" or a little shorter, as needed.  This of course means re-fitting the plug to the barrel which also has to be shortened to match.  Luckily, now I have a heavy lathe with four jaw chucks, both universal and independent, so this is now an easy job.  But I've also done lots with hacksaw and file and they turned out perfect too.  If building a rifle quickly is a concern, then pre-carved stocks fill that need.  But more versatility is available in a plank build for sure.

[rfd]

I think folks are not asking that all kits be as close to finished as Kibler kits, but that known, recurring issues with some kits should be remedied. I think that’s fair. Professional and master-level longrifle makers who see the issues as “no big deal” are in the same category as professional rock guitarists. They think playing Little Wing, or Stairway to Heaven, or Sweet Melissa (choose your faves but let’s not derail) is a piece of cake, mastered in a half hour. It is for them. But if kits did not have repetitive flaws, more beginner builders would have success and enjoy the experience.

IMHO, spot on, Sir.

[RAT]

Just an FYI...
Ron Ehlert did a 2-part video on building a Chambers kit (2003). He mentions notching the breech plug. Love it, or hate it, there it is. Chambers used to have this video listed in their catalog.

[rfd]

Notching the breech plug means botching the breech plug, to me.  A no-no.  But, to each their own.

[Birddog6]

I have bought precarve stocks from TOW, Jim Chambers, Tip Curtis, Dunlaps,  & 2-3 others. ALL of them needed the barrels moved back & usually about 1/4".  I always thought it was part of the build, to set the barrel where YOU want it.

But, I would rather have to move the barrel than have anything on the stock Over-Inlet.  That is something that really ticks me off.  Nothing would gripe me more than have a barrel Fall into the inlet.  I want to Make parts fit ALL inlets.
Overinleting is pure carelessness, sloppy work, and they get away with it because people let them

I have built dozens of percarved stocks.  BUT, of them all but 4 I hand picked & set all the parts on them before I bought them. Those 4 I didn't hand pick were sent back.  3 Over-inlet & I was told it was wear on the pattern & nobody else is complaining.  They went back.  Another one the lock was too low. I was told Well, that's the way the pattern is.  And my response was The pattern is Wrong & it is coming back to you..

I am saying DO NOT accept faulty workmanship.  Make the agreement with them right Up Front,  If it is faulty I am returning it & getting a FULL refund including shipping. If they don't agree then don't buy it.  Don't let them dump their halfa$$ work on you,  Stand up for yourself.

If you get a Lock & it don't perform. SEND IT BACK.  Don't work on it, return it.  You paid for a working lock, not a rebuild job for their screwups. Make them make it right. If you get a barrel that has a loose spot in the bore, Send it Back. Don't accept 2nds unless you know you are buying 2nds & paying for a 2nd.

If everyone starts sending this stuff back, these venders will get it right eventually.  Or word will get around &nobody will buy anything from them.  But you have to Stand Up.

 

[bob in the woods]

I've never had to notch a plug on any of the Chambers kits I've built, but have shortened the plugs on a few barrels if required. 

[WadePatton]

I have bought precarve stocks from TOW, Jim Chambers, Tip Curtis, Dunlaps,  & 2-3 others. ALL of them needed the barrels moved back & usually about 1/4".  I always thought it was part of the build, to set the barrel where YOU want it.

But, I would rather have to move the barrel than have anything on the stock Over-Inlet.  That is something that really ticks me off.  Nothing would gripe me more than have a barrel Fall into the inlet.  I want to Make parts fit ALL inlets.
Overinleting is pure carelessness, sloppy work, and they get away with it because people let them

I have built dozens of percarved stocks.  BUT, of them all but 4 I hand picked & set all the parts on them before I bought them. Those 4 I didn't hand pick were sent back.  3 Over-inlet & I was told it was wear on the pattern & nobody else is complaining.  They went back.  Another one the lock was too low. I was told Well, that's the way the pattern is.  And my response was The pattern is Wrong & it is coming back to you..

I am saying DO NOT accept faulty workmanship.  Make the agreement with them right Up Front,  If it is faulty I am returning it & getting a FULL refund including shipping. If they don't agree then don't buy it.  Don't let them dump their halfa$$ work on you,  Stand up for yourself.

If you get a Lock & it don't perform. SEND IT BACK.  Don't work on it, return it.  You paid for a working lock, not a rebuild job for their screwups. Make them make it right. If you get a barrel that has a loose spot in the bore, Send it Back. Don't accept 2nds unless you know you are buying 2nds & paying for a 2nd.

If everyone starts sending this stuff back, these venders will get it right eventually.  Or word will get around &nobody will buy anything from them.  But you have to Stand Up.

Amen.


Keith I now understand what's going on besides the makers/vendors being "frugal" to the point of diminishing interest/value in their products.  That being that a great deal, if not the vast majority of these "run of the worn pattern" bastardizations of rifle stocks are sold to newcomers. They most likely don't know what is acceptable/proper or impossible for the style/school they've purchased. They accept the whacked production and start cutting on it--which of course kills any return options.  THEN they get stuck or have problems and they dig around and start learning what's what.  Who knows how many just give up on the idea. 

The one that got my goat back when I was shopping such items was the fact that, even though I was all green and just learning about historic longrifles, that even I knew that Southern guns took English locks and their standard lock was Germanic in shape. I suppose this will never change. I saw it again today.

Unlike DW above, I was lucky enough to find this site and even a real builder only 45 minutes away, so I never built a kit.  I don't see any pre-carves in my future (not any that I purchase).

I think many more parts kits would be returned if each new builder would have an old builder look it over when it comes in, before any cutting takes place.  Even if the pro/experienced gunstocker had to charge for his time, the noob could save lots of work, some of which might well be beyond his/her skillset or toolset. Of course not everyone has access to such, but we can do a LOT with this digital world, and connections can be made where pics cannot reach.

[Birddog6]

Well, over the years I have come across some issues in quality several times. Most of the times I was
able to work them out pleasantly.  One time at Friendship I lost my cool in front of God & everyone &
embarrassed myself, my friend & the vender.  Ken said I should have warned him so he could leave. 
Welllllll,it all started out calmly & was going well until the vender wanted to SELL me parts to replace the
parts they acknowledged were made wrong. Well, that didn't set too well with me.  Then some smarta$$
who is now on here comes to me laughing & said "Keith, tell me how you Really feel".  The funny thing is
He would have done the same thing I did, come unglued. 

But I will say, 99% of the time I have been able to work it out if something was wrong or not as it should
be. But I Always Make A Point to tell the vender that is coming back for a full refund if it's faulty or not exactly
how you state it to be. If they will not agree, I won't buy it.

Unfortunately, for the Newbies, they are screwed unless they have some guidance from someone that knows
a little.  They always find out half way thru the build the stock is not made right or this or that. Stuff like
putting a Siler lock on a Tenn rifle.  To me that's like putting a Bedford lock on a Hawken rifle.  Yes, it may
work but it is not right.  Why do they do it ?  because it was Easy & they already had it set up & people
accepted it.    

One time I was at a match & this young guy had built a pretty decent rifle but man it had a dead lock. 4-5 shots
& dead. New flint, same all over.  Well after about 15 flints that day I told him you need to send that lock back &
tell the Mfg. that EVERYONE at the club is waiting to see how this all turns out.  Saw the kid about a year later & he
tells me he got a brand new lock & it works wonderfully. The kid didn't know any better. He thought if it fired 3-4
times you had to change flints.  ( BTW, it was Not a Chambers lock. Jim's would have worked from the getgo)

But taking things lying down & letting people get away with selling inferior products doesn't set well with me.
I fought a major truck mfg. co. one time, took me a year, but I got my truck fixed & a resolution & it ran
for 275,000 miles before I sold it.

Call them OUT.  Stand Firm.  Don't take it.  That is the whole problem, you accept it & they think it is good
enough because you accepted it. 

I've owned a business for over 30 years (Not ML related) & I know you must please the customer.  You don't
please them, they go to someone who Does please them. 

[Mike Brooks]

I've have built 3 N.E fowling guns, 1 Officer's fusil, 1 Pennsylvania smoothbore, and one Edward Marshall rifle.....all from kits by Chambers.   Never had a problem with any of them.  I still recommend them to others , especially since Mr Kibler's kits are as yet restricted to two models.
If I ever did have a complaint, I'd first contact the seller and see what the response was.

Same here. I had some difficulty with the officers fuzzy when Jim was getting his barrels from longhammock, they weren't turned to the proper  compound tapers. He must be getting barrels from Rice now as they fit again now.

[t.caster]

Here is an update on the kit rifle that started this discussion. A lot of extra hours were spent fixing alignment issues. I have just as many hours (96) at this point as I would have if I started from a blank. Is is close to done now and has turned into a fine rifle, I think, but my point is a beginner would not be able to put this together without a full shop full of tools and fixtures and past experience....not to mention knowledge of what is right and wrong on a particular school or builders style.
Good touchhole to lock alignment achieved:


Nearly finished in the white: