Author Topic: Flint Patent Breech Plugs  (Read 1079 times)

Offline Bruce Mattes

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Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« on: December 05, 2021, 11:22:23 PM »
Is a flint patent breech plug in the style of Manton, or Nock, a necessity if I wish to build a modern, two-handed, sling-assisted, sidelock, flintlock, hunting pistol with a .62 caliber, octagon-to-round barrel having 0.025" deep, oval bottom grooves?

My osteoarthritis is progressing so quickly in both shoulders that prudence dictates that I no longer even consider shooting any type of long arm.. Not if I care about the long-term health of my shoulders.

As a result of this decision, I would like to find a builder that would be willing to make me a .62 caliber, flintlock version of a Doc White, two-handed, percussion inline muzzleloading pistol that Doc called a Javelina. He made approximately 50 of these pistols back in the 90's. They sold out quickly, but the idea was never commercially successful.

The pistol's one-piece stock is relatively conventional until the forearm is concerned. Projecting downwards, and slightly rearwards, is what can only be described as a stubby pistol grip. This stubby pistol grip is intended to be used with a push-pull motion by the weak hand. The main pistol grip is very saw-handle in its shape.

The primary/strong hand grips the ambidextrous, main pistol grip where the trigger is located, while simultaneously exerting rearwards pressure against the grip. The secondary/weak hand grips the stubby forearm pistol grip, while simultaneously exerting forwards pressure against the grip. A single point tactical sling is worn across the strong hand's shoulder blade, and is connected to the bottom of the main pistol grip via a push button sling swivel that fits into a flush-mounted, push button, sling swivel base.

When properly fitted to a shooter, the combination of the stretched out, taughtly tensioned sling, along with both outstretched arms working the push-pull motion against the two grips; makes for an incredibly stable, Isoceles triangle, Weaver-style, offhand stance. Add any kind of a rest for the forearm into play, and the platform becomes even more stable.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 11:28:57 PM by Bruce Mattes »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2021, 11:49:56 PM »
No patent breech is needed on any flintlock rifle or pistol.The term "Patent "breech applied to special breech systems that were supposed to accelerate ignition.Today the "Patent" breech is nothing more than a chambered plug with the chamber a drilled hole parallel to the bore and a common plug with the vent just in front of it will work fine.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 12:19:25 AM by Bob Roller »

Online Daryl

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2021, 01:31:33 AM »
The flint patent breech on my smoothbore is not a Nock or Manton style.  It is simply a patent, hooked breech, with a vent liner.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2021, 03:05:56 AM »
Have this doc white fellow build it for you.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2021, 03:16:02 PM »
The flint patent breech on my smoothbore is not a Nock or Manton style.  It is simply a patent, hooked breech, with a vent liner.

What Daryl described can be used to install a drum and nipple in a thin barrel like a 13/16 x 45 caliber OR the 13/16 x 50 caliber mentioned here recently.That idea is still a bad one IMHO.
Bob Roller

Offline varsity07840

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2021, 05:15:41 PM »
I'm not a big fan of them especially if installed out of the box. The mouth of the powder chamber has to be chamfered to match the bore on order to prevent powder bridging. At least that's been my experience.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2021, 05:34:45 PM »
I'm not a big fan of them especially if installed out of the box. The mouth of the powder chamber has to be chamfered to match the bore on order to prevent powder bridging. At least that's been my experience.
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Online D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2021, 09:40:36 PM »
I doubt that you will find a builder here that will entertain an "INLINE" build of any kind.  We build side-lock guns here.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Bruce Mattes

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2021, 02:19:55 AM »
I love how people fail to throughly read my OP.

I have zero desire to have anyone build me an inline muzzleloading pistol.

What I do desire is for someone to build me an ambidextrous, flintlock, sidelock, long-barreled, muzzleloading, big game, hunting pistol whose stock would have a secondary, short, pistol grip that would extend downwards/rearwards from the underside of the forearm to allow for a more secure two-handed grip.

This is something that I require not simply desire. My osteoarthritis has caused a significant strength loss in both shoulders/arms over the past two years. As a result, I have been advised by my Primary Care Physician to limit as many stresses to my shoulders as is possible. This means either giving up all hopes of hunting, or finding a new, different way to approach how I conceive of hunting.

As far as Doc White is concerned, he is about to turn 85 years old, his queue is full, he has limited use of his right hand/arm due to a rotator cuff injury several years ago, and I have witnessed a noticeable decline in his inletting skills since the injury, on those guns that I have seen images of posted online.

All I want from Doc White at this point in time is to borrow the concept of his two-handed, inline, Javelina hunting pistol, and apply the concept to a flintlock, sidelock hunting pistol.

If such a pistol offends any of the purist builders here at ALR, tough!!! 

Is such a flintlock hunting pistol traditional? Absolutely NOT!!

Would such a two-handed, flintlock, hunting pistol allow me to resume hunting at the age of 68? Absolutely YES!!!

Would such a hunting pistol allow me to hunt into my 70's, perhaps into my 80's? Possibly. And, right now, that's the best I can think of. I do not wish to try handgun hunting with any kind of heavy recoiling centerfire handgun. A two-handed, sling-assisted, muzzleloading pistol of .62 caliber, with interchangeable rifled & smoothbore barrels is what 1.5 years of spitballing & conceptual thinking has brought me to.

If someone here wants to help me, fine. If you don't want to help me, so be it.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2021, 03:58:53 AM »
Bruce, It almost looks like there is some confusion about what you want maybe because of the use of INLINE in your original post. May be another more detailed explanation of the gun you want might help. :-\

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2021, 05:31:59 AM »
Pictures are needed. Even a sketch.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bruce Mattes

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2021, 06:25:35 AM »
I don't own a laptop, or desktop computer. Only a cellphone. The only images that would illustrate the stock design that I am speaking of, and that I could post here, would violate ALR rules, as the images would be of one of Doc White's inline muzzleloading pistols.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2021, 06:39:40 AM »
So it sounds like you want an pistol that is a flintlock but looks like an inline with two grips. Am I reading that right?

Online Daryl

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2021, 07:19:53 AM »
Only change from the inline, is a flint-lock for a firing mechanism.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2021, 05:38:34 PM »
I can't quite wrap my brain around the gun you describe....maybe you could post a link to this doc white's work. I can't imagine this forward grip could be made one with the stock . BTW, you can get new shoulders put in these days, I did.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2021, 05:53:47 PM »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2021, 06:06:35 PM »
This is so far from what builders here do that Id be surprised if someone here would take on the project. Here is a cropped image that gives a sense of what the stock looks like.

Maybe going forward we can limit responses to PM me, Id be interested in helping you or Try getting in touch with so and so- theyd probably be able to help you.  I dont want to go too far down the road if completely non-traditional muzzleloaders. Ive probably gone too far already.



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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2021, 06:09:31 PM »
Nock breech for a 67 caliber rifle. The drawing I believe is from "The Gun" by W Greener 1835 or maybe "The Gun and Its Development" W.W. Greener 1896, showing the Nock and another form of breeching. In modern testing the Nock is top tier for speed though maybe not the absolute best and best for uniformity shot to shot. The drawing shows breeching that I would not do with modern thread fits since this will leak gases/fouling/cleaning fluid/oil into the threads. Post industrial revolution thread fits require the breech be seated against a shoulder to form a seal.








Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.  Jame Madison
 Its been happening for over 100 years.

Offline poppy

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2021, 08:47:39 PM »
  look at english  dueling pistol,s late 1700s  saw handle grip .     

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2021, 11:48:39 PM »
The one on the left is supposed to blast a streak of fire thre the core of the main charge and create an enhanced performance.
Powder quality varied a lot back in that day and MAY be this idea had merit then. I know the Brits has developed locks that were
ferocious performers and I have seen them send a ball of white sparks into a tiny flash pan and then lat there and sizzle for a few
seconds.I fire a 16 bore Manton rifle many years ago at Tom Dawson's home in Western Indiana and it went of like a modern center fire
rifle.NO perceptible lag.
  The breech on the right is another variant and maybe another idea of a higher level of performance.The Brits worked very hard to forestall the onslaught of the fulminated ignition system and left some magnificent relicc to study and even copy if possible.
Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2021, 07:28:29 AM »
The Nock breech dates to the 1780s. The plain design is surely older than that.
Flintlock development pretty well ended with the advent of a workable percussion system, certainly by the mid-1820s. But by about 1810-1815 they had pretty much developed it as far as it was going to go.
George in "English Guns and Rifles" states that the percussion system caused the flintlock to vanish in fowlers used by sportsmen almost overnight. But in rifles the FL hung on longer. The percussion system allowed better results when shooting at birds in flight and I wonder in variations in the percussion systems hurt accuracy in rifles.
Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.  Jame Madison
 Its been happening for over 100 years.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flint Patent Breech Plugs
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2021, 07:51:22 AM »
I love how people fail to throughly read my OP.

I have zero desire to have anyone build me an inline muzzleloading pistol.

What I do desire is for someone to build me an ambidextrous, flintlock, sidelock, long-barreled, muzzleloading, big game, hunting pistol whose stock would have a secondary, short, pistol grip that would extend downwards/rearwards from the underside of the forearm to allow for a more secure two-handed grip.

This is something that I require not simply desire. My osteoarthritis has caused a significant strength loss in both shoulders/arms over the past two years. As a result, I have been advised by my Primary Care Physician to limit as many stresses to my shoulders as is possible. This means either giving up all hopes of hunting, or finding a new, different way to approach how I conceive of hunting.

As far as Doc White is concerned, he is about to turn 85 years old, his queue is full, he has limited use of his right hand/arm due to a rotator cuff injury several years ago, and I have witnessed a noticeable decline in his inletting skills since the injury, on those guns that I have seen images of posted online.

All I want from Doc White at this point in time is to borrow the concept of his two-handed, inline, Javelina hunting pistol, and apply the concept to a flintlock, sidelock hunting pistol.

If such a pistol offends any of the purist builders here at ALR, tough!!! 

Is such a flintlock hunting pistol traditional? Absolutely NOT!!

Would such a two-handed, flintlock, hunting pistol allow me to resume hunting at the age of 68? Absolutely YES!!!

Would such a hunting pistol allow me to hunt into my 70's, perhaps into my 80's? Possibly. And, right now, that's the best I can think of. I do not wish to try handgun hunting with any kind of heavy recoiling centerfire handgun. A two-handed, sling-assisted, muzzleloading pistol of .62 caliber, with interchangeable rifled & smoothbore barrels is what 1.5 years of spitballing & conceptual thinking has brought me to.

If someone here wants to help me, fine. If you don't want to help me, so be it.
"Bear pistols" are not unknown historically. But who cares if its traditional or not? You could have it made with a detachable arm brace as is used on AR15 "pistols" No need for fancy modern stock profiles I would think there are ML stock profiles from the late 18th and early 19th that would likely fill the bill. AS previous mentioned the saw handled guns.
Nor do you need a really long barrel. A 9-10" barrel will produce enough velocity to kill deer to 30-40 yards with no sweat. For deer calibers over 54 are not needed in my experience. Larger game a 62 might be needed and I have a recut from .54 cal to .62 x 1" GM barrel I am going to make a pair of percussion pistols from. It was recut with a 48" twist for this purpose. But recoil with bores over 58 is going to start to be a factor if trying for much velocity. AND don't expect light recoil from a 54 caliber pistol with a hunting load the one I killed a deer with would not shoot accurately with light loads and with the accuracy load the recoil was about like a modern mag revolver through it did roll more with the recoil that something like a DA revolver would. For anything like a 40 yard hunting load you really need a MV on the far side of 1100 fps. AND is it legal to hunt with a ML pistol where you live?
You might contact Muzzleloader Builder Supply, Ryan has a lot of pistol parts and such. Its a place to start anyway.

Dan
Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.  Jame Madison
 Its been happening for over 100 years.