lock position vs breach

[bob in the woods]

There has been a fair amount of discussion re kits or rather parts sets . I did not want to hijact the thread , so thought I'd just post this.  First, I will admit that I am by no means an expert when it comes to anything re these historical guns which I love. What really interests me is the processes , skills and materials used to make these, along with their use, both in a historical and modern context.  I've seen many folks who are fanatical re the pan shield [?] location being in line with the back of the barrel, [ I'm not sure if I'm describing this properly ]    and yet many of the old guns I've looked at don't incorporate this as a feature. Looking at NE Fowling guns in Grinslade's book as an example,  NE 1   maybe , NE 2  no, NE3 yes, NE4  not even close, NE 5 yes, NE 6 no.....well you get the idea.  When I built my newest NE Fowling gun from Chambers, the pan fence ended up 1/8th in from the back of the barrel.  Looks fine to me and no notched plug.

[smylee grouch]

Good point Bob. There are a lot of " these guns always had this or were made like this " comments made. Kinda reinforces my belief that you should never say never or always.

[rich pierce]

I don’t think it matters where the fence ends up in relation to the breech end of the barrel. But where the center of the pan ends up in relation to the face of the breechplug is critical and is the issue addressed in another discussion. It’s been reported that as delivered, the breechplug face was 1/4” in front of the center of the pan. Now consider that 98% of builders are also going to use a liner for the touch hole. And that liner is about 5/16” in diameter. So a newbie builder either has to try to move the barrel back 1/4” - and not lose wrist height doing it - or notch the breechplug. Given that some folks are very careful to get a good fit of breechplug to the face of the threaded breech of the barrel, cutting away some threads might seem iffy. I agree 100% these issues are not critical or deal- breakers. But so unnecessary.

This has nothing to do with where the fence and end of the barrel interface with each other. I sincerely doubt that the builders we emulate messed with breechplug thread length to make the fence and end of barrel line up nicely depending on what lock they were using. But I’m pretty sure they put the center of the pan and touchhole just in front of the breechplug face. Every original flint barrel I’ve unbreeched has this setup.

[Not English]

I have never put a kit together, so maybe my comments may not be applicable. When I am first laying out a gun, I already have a lock in mind. It takes nothing to measure the distance from the middle of the pan to the back of the fence. As long as it is no less than a 1/2" I have no problems milling the breach plug and barrel to match. In my experience, breach plugs tend to measure 5/8". I always hand fit the breach plug to the barrel. I guess what I'm saying is that it's important to me that the back of the fence and the end of the barrel match up. If I can't get them to line up, maybe I need to think about a different lock or possibly modifying one.

[Birddog6]

Where the lock fence lines up is dependent on Who you want to please.
If you are building for you, it may not make a difference.
If you are building to please the PC / HC police, it makes a difference. 

For me, to enjoy the build & please me is the main goal. I
dont build rifles for a livelihood, & I don’t build for competition,
I build as a hobby.
  If someone else likes it & wants to buy it, great. If not, it is not
 a issue, as I always build something I would like for myself.

 

[yip]

  i'm a bit confused here, a picture would be great.

[rich pierce]

  i'm a bit confused here, a picture would be great.

Note tge position of the fence or back wall of the pan in relation to the breech end of the barrel.

[flehto]

When I first started building, saw some pics of originals that had the  fence even w/ the breech end of the bbl, but when I tried to duplicate that, it didn't happen. Depends on the position  of the TH  which is determined by the threaded plug length and the fence position to the rear of the pan. So I just plain ignored this issue and never thought about it again......afterall, 1/8"-3/16" of wood alongside the bbl doesn't detract at all from the aesthetics and from a side view, the cock sometimes hides it anyways. .....Fred

[Bob Roller]

Stubby breech plug threads like the old ones.Makes it easier to get a good looking breech and there are none as far as I know that ever had a plug blow out.Herb posted a load for an original Hawken with original measure of 52 grains and maybe used 2 for long shots or very heavy animals.Ridiculous powder charges are a modern innovation and probably encouraged by makers and sellers of powder.Also the fallacy that says "You can't blow it up with black powder"encourages this silly idea.
Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

The originals are all over the place. I can think of far more important worries when building these guns.

[smart dog]

Hi,
What Mike wrote!  The only disadvantage to having the pan more forward is the little nub of wood extending behind the pan can be fragile.

dave

[Daryl]

That's the only detriment I thought of too, Dave.
As far as powder charges go, I use what the rifle likes me to use.
By "likes" I am talking bout accuracy & enough powder to do the job as history required (talking about my 14 bore there).

[yip]

  i might be stupid but the only way to bring the fence back to the end of the barrel is to counter bore the breach lug? the make up of the lock dictates the f/h right?

[rich pierce]

  i might be stupid but the only way to bring the fence back to the end of the barrel is to counter bore the breach lug? the make up of the lock dictates the f/h right?

No. Shorten the barrel and breechplug exactly the same amount.

[StevenV]

It was explained to me the touch hole lined up with the face of the breech plug. Where the fence falls the fence falls. With older/original breech plugs they were shorter as a whole then today's breech plug length, this usually puts the fence close to the back/end of the barrel. Is this alignment not common practice with today's builders ? As I have evolved in making flintlocks I have gravitated to liking the thinner/slimmer gun stocks as opposed to the thicker or dare I say clubber looking stocks. One measurement/tolerance doesn't make a gun slimmer or clubber but a whole bunch over the gun do.  Steve

[TommyG]

On my current project I am using a Kibler lock and the fence is just about at the breach.  Maybe Jim designed his locks this way to address this issue, although I agree with others that to me anyway, it is not really an issue.  This is with clearance for a 1/4" touch hole liner.

[rich pierce]

StevenV, is that plug from a flintlock or a flintlock converted to percussion?

[Jim Chambers]

The style of the lock makes a big difference.  If you measure the distance from the center of the pan on an English style lock you will notice that the distance is greater than on a Germanic style lock.  It is easy to line up the back of the fence with the back of the breech when using an English style lock and still have the touch hole in front of the breech plug face.  If you line up the fence with the end of the breech when using a Germanic style lock you will have to file a notch in the face of the breech plug.  Every old barrel I have unbreeched has had a notch cut in the plug face if the gun had a Germanic lock.  The old guys just didn't seem to care much about this.

[yip]

  Jim agree!

[Birddog6]

Be that the case, then fitting a breechplug to the barrel is a total waste of time, just line up the flats & go.  It doesn't matter if the fit is good or not, because you just cut out 1/3 of the fitted surface away making a V across the face of the breechplug. That just blew fitting a breechplug to the barrel theory all to H. 

[StevenV]

Rich I can not say for certain so I am not going to guess. Jim spot on!   Steve

[poppy]

the old gun,s had larger flash holes  than the gun,s we build today except english gun,s, they wanted fast ignition

[Metalshaper]

according to my mechanical engineer brother in law and the machine standards I learned in machine tech 1 & 2.. 3 full threads are all that is needed to hold?
looking at the pic of that notched plug.. there are 3 threads behind the notch? Just saying..

as for myself, I'm not opposed to creating a chambered breech plug.( and have )  never quite ran against a situation where I was thinking about filing a notch.

just musing, lost among my own thoughts..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Bob Roller]

according to my mechanical engineer brother in law and the machine standards I learned in machine tech 1 & 2.. 3 full threads are all that is needed to hold?
looking at the pic of that notched plug.. there are 3 threads behind the notch? Just saying..

as for myself, I'm not opposed to creating a chambered breech plug.( and have )  never quite ran against a situation where I was thinking about filing a notch.

just musing, lost among my own thoughts..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

If a leak of smoke and fire aren't going to be created,do it right.IF the breech plug is a common type the locate the face and place the lock so the back side of the cup(pan)that actually carries the prime aligns with it and leave the threads alone.
Bob Roller