Elk Rifle Idea Question

[borderdogs]

I have a Kit Carson Hawken built by Brant Selb with a 34" 1" barrel in .58 that weighs exactly 10lbs and is a little barrel heavy but  an easy gun to carry at 64 years. The one I plan to build I am guessing will be a little under 10lbs with a 28" long barrel 1" diameter. When the time comes to hunt with them I will bring them both.
Rob

[Daryl]

The only way I can envision a 7 1/2 pound .58, is with a really thin, short barrel with 1/2 stock, Red maple or black walnut stock with hollow under rib.

[Bob Roller]

The only way I can envision a 7 1/2 pound .58, is with a really thin, short barrel with 1/2 stock, Red maple or black walnut stock with hollow under rib.

My first serious muzzle loader was a 1"x33 and 58 caliber,black walnut half stock,rod thimbles soldered
to the bottom flat,single set trigger and silver butt plate and trigger guard.I used it as a match rifle and
did well with it and loaned it to a friend that set some sort of off hand record with it in Ohio.Weight was not quite
8 lbs as I recall.
Bob Roller

[elkhorne]

Panzerschwein,
When trying to decide on a barrel, try talking to Bobby Hoyt or FCI and discuss your needs with them. Since they specialize in barrels, they might have some helpful ideas.
elkhorn

[Bsharp]

I made an 8# 12 bore using a 27", 1.1/8" x 1" barrel.

2.1/2" drop and uses an Early Wide butt plate.

Mild load of 125Ff and a .720 ball.

[Daniel Coats]

Don't forget lead time on special purpose barrels!

[flehto]

Hi Mike.....yes, unlike whitetail hunting, elk hunting is much more strenuous and the terrain and  altitude make it so. Not much sitting around waiting for an elk ....they herd "tighter" than deer and it's a matter of walking a lot until one finds the herd and because you're moving, you're more noticeable to the elk.

I usually just sit on a good stand while deer hunting and when the deer is spotted, it's shot and the gutting fun begins. Elk seem to have an "aura of mysticism" and just because you can see them, doesn't mean you'll have a shot.

Went elk hunting w/ a buddy and he had DSTs on his rifle and before going asked him if he wanted me to block the setting trigger ...he said no. Well , he was climbing a steep, partly wooded  incline and saw a 6 X6 at 50 yds, set the rear trigger and touched the front trigger before putting the bead on the bull. He was breathing hard from the climb. While the bull was just standing there, he reloaded and the 2nd shot was a repeat of the first and  while loading for the 3rd shot, the bull sauntered away. Needless to say,  when home, the rear trigger was blocked.

Elk hunting really "grabbed me" and in order to hunt them nearly every year, different licenses were bought...MLer, CF and archery. Found that the .54 PRB was the best cal for elk..... decent trajectory and enough ft/lbs to drop them. Also the gun's  weight was reasonable   and a sling was always used when climbing steep inclines.....Fred

[borderdogs]

I will second Bobby Hoyt on barrels he made me a special barrel lead time was good around 5-6 weeks.
Rob

[bob in the woods]

I'm going to suggest the Cabin Creek Mountain rifle for a 2nd time.  Swamped 38 in barrel in .54 caliber . Add sling swivels, and I think it would do the job. 

[Berksrifle]

 My Cabin Creek PA Mountain weighs in at 6.96 pounds on my Cabela's fish scale.
 Same barrel and caliber as the one Bob in the woods has.

 Ken

[Bsharp]

This is a Charles Burton barrel, 58 with a 1-90 twist, it will shoot soft or hard lead.

9 pound gun.

[Mike Brooks]

1-90 YIKES! You must be a Westerner.....

[Dphariss]

You guys make elk hunting sound like no fun at all.

I agree 100%. I can only guess that elk inhabit a variety of mountain habitats, and some are like a wall of blackberry briars growing on a jackstraw 50% slope . I’d stay away from those.

It can be a real PITA. Worse if you kill something.
Conditions and terrain varies. Illustrates why I use a full length gun cover.

In this photo I am too far in to shoot something as large as an elk when on foot. But probably would have anyway.

[Dphariss]

We have elk hunting too, but it looks more like this:
I've never seen one on a road, though. The rest of it is rather up and down.

and up and down both hurt after a time.

[Dphariss]

If I were building a dedicated Elk rifle it would be a .62 English sporting rifle maybe a 30" barrel. 54 is OK but if you hit a large bone like the humerus penetration may suffer. I.E. it was a one shot kill but I realized the 54s limitations.

[alacran]

I am lucky to live in an area that by most standards elk hunting is relatively easy. I have shot elk as close as two miles from the house. I do not have to hunt in the black timber. I do not have to hunt above 9000 feet. The unit I live in is 550 square miles. The only hard thind about hunting in Arizona is getting drawn.
Unfortunately, I did not get drawn this year. However, I have been helping a neighbor who at the age of 71 decided he was going to be an elk hunter.
He was drawn for the late cow hunt in my unit. We spent time scouting and shooting. It didn't take long for me to realize that he is not up to the task.
Second day of the hunt he was not able to take an opportunity at a young cow because of " Optic Rectitis".
On the third day of the hunt, I spotted about a dozen elk in a meadow about 2 1/2 miles away.
Knowing the country and the direction of the wind I figured they would be going to bed down on the northside of a knoll that was 3 miles away from where we were glassing.
My neighbor jogs everyday he says about 4 to five miles. I asked him if he was willing to try the northside of that knoll. I told him it would take us about two hours to get to knoll.  He said he was up to it.
 Long story short when we got to the base of the knoll, he said he would not be able to make the climb.
When we finally got back to the truck, he told me his feet were really sore and wouldn't be able to hunt the next day.   We had walked at least seven miles that day, which I consider an average day.
I will call him today and see if has recovered enough to have another go at it.
Mostly elk hunting is nothing but pleasurable work.
By the way D. Pharis I see you have no slings on the rifles you carry.

[Daryl]

That's Dan's .54 swivel breech rifle, at least appears to be.  I saw that one in the late summer.Sept. of 2018.

[Dphariss]

I am lucky to live in an area that by most standards elk hunting is relatively easy. I have shot elk as close as two miles from the house. I do not have to hunt in the black timber. I do not have to hunt above 9000 feet. The unit I live in is 550 square miles. The only hard thind about hunting in Arizona is getting drawn.
Unfortunately, I did not get drawn this year. However, I have been helping a neighbor who at the age of 71 decided he was going to be an elk hunter.
He was drawn for the late cow hunt in my unit. We spent time scouting and shooting. It didn't take long for me to realize that he is not up to the task.
Second day of the hunt he was not able to take an opportunity at a young cow because of " Optic Rectitis".
On the third day of the hunt, I spotted about a dozen elk in a meadow about 2 1/2 miles away.
Knowing the country and the direction of the wind I figured they would be going to bed down on the northside of a knoll that was 3 miles away from where we were glassing.
My neighbor jogs everyday he says about 4 to five miles. I asked him if he was willing to try the northside of that knoll. I told him it would take us about two hours to get to knoll.  He said he was up to it.
 Long story short when we got to the base of the knoll, he said he would not be able to make the climb.
When we finally got back to the truck, he told me his feet were really sore and wouldn't be able to hunt the next day.   We had walked at least seven miles that day, which I consider an average day.
I will call him today and see if has recovered enough to have another go at it.
Mostly elk hunting is nothing but pleasurable work.
By the way D. Pharis I see you have no slings on the rifles you carry.

Slings are a blessing and a curse, on a long rifle its mostly curse. With long barreled rifles a sling does not work all that well. Either have the butt too low or the barrel high and the rifle tries to rotate back. There is a reason why the original long rifles very seldom have provisions for a sling. I have shot quite a few critters with rifles without slings over the years.
The English style rifle has a sling. Its the only ML I own that has provision for one. I have rifles with slings and I know how to use them but a long rifle? Nope. The 50 cal swivel weighs 13 pounds and the barrel length would make a sling a huge PITA Not to mention swiveling the barrels. IMO anyhow.

[Bsharp]

Round ball Sizes
Pure Lead Ball Weight
.310 = 45 grains
.315 = 47 grains
.321 = 50 grains
.350 = 65 grains
.360 = 71 grains
.375 = 80 grains
.390 = 88 grains
.395 = 92 grains
.400 = 96 grains
.433 = 122 grains
.437 = 127 grains
.440 = 128 grains
.443 = 131 grains
.445 = 133 grains
.451 = 138 grains
.454 = 141 grains
.457 = 144 grains
.490 = 177 grains
.498 = 180 grains
.520 = 212 grains
.530 = 224 grains
.535 = 231 grains
.543 = 241 grains
.550 = 251 grains
.560 = 260 grains
.562 = 276 grains
.570 = 279 grains
.575 = 286 grains
.595 = 317 grains
.600 = 325 grains
.610 = 342 grains
.648 = 410 grains
.662 = 437 grains
.678 = 469 grains
.680 = 473 grains
.690 = 495 grains
.715 = 550 grains
.725 = 568 grains
.730 = 586 grains
.735 = 598 grains
.760 = 661 grains
.775 = 700 grains
.835 = 875 grains
.875 = 1000 grains
.919 = 1167 grains
1.052 = 1750 grains

My thoughts have always been:

Think like a bow hunter, get close and hit them with a Sludge Hammer!

[WadePatton]

I am quite happy carrying a .54 for elk ...  I am only 81 so the extra pound won't make much difference. I figured if I were concerned about getting tired carrying the extra weight that dropping a few pounds around the belt would make up for it. So I took off 60lbs and dropped type 2 diabetes in the bargain as well.

LOVE hearing of other folks getting healthier and getting rid of T2D. Too many assume they cannot.  I wholeheartedly agree that taking several pounds off the carcass could easily offset few pounds of gun-and most folks are capable of such.


Wondering how long your bbl is Jerry?

I only thought a 42" bbl might be too long in the woods when I had never carried one.  But since that's all I hunt with now, I dearly LOVE the length and have no plans to build any shorter. I hunt some of the thickest thickets in the SE with privet, briars (ten flavors), honeysuckle, grapevines, steeps, holes, timber, kudzu, etc.  I can go anywhere the deer can go with a 3.5 foot-barreled longrifle, just not as quietly, quickly, or gracefully. The longer bbl also makes using the gun as a staff a viable proposition and is often helpful on the steeps (steel buttplate recommended).

It's so much easier to tote my longrifle than it was my scoped stubby guns. But I'm not like everybody else-none of us are. I just had to offer my opinion on a 42" bbl.  I have one 42" built and 4 more bbls for builds, all in excess of 42".

Totally agree with Dan on the sling. Might be okay on a short-bbled gun, but I have never wanted one on my longrifle, as it's balanced just right and would certainly become a snagger of all things if I tried to use a sling on it.  So I'll modify my bbl length observations for those using a sling. The shorter the gun the easier it'll pack when slung no doubt. 

[tecum-tha]

I bowhunt elk with my longbow and for us it is relatively easy to get within 50 to 60 yards of elk if you have found them.
The concurrent 10 day CO ML season shows, that a lot of these hunters road hunt or walk 200 yards off the road and sit down. 90% of those guys never see an elk and never kill one either. The key is to go where the elk are, and this is mostly nasty terrain in the ML season.
Arizona and other areas where you hunt over water are different.

[AZshot]

"Hunt where the elk are" is what my friend Tony taught me when I started hunting 30 years ago.  Good to hear it again.  Like a lot of new hunters, I figured I would find some sign, then sit in a place and hope they came by.  I learned from him that won't work, you'll sit there all day. Instead we scouted hard for the 2-3 days before a hunt, and found a herd or a harem then followed them until the opening day.  It involved a lot of hiking and sometimes riding mules, or 4 wheeling into very remote places.  Then glassing a lot to find some.  After you do....the shooting is the easy part.   We often camped right next to a herd, in the timber, the night before the opening day.  You wake up at oh-dark-thirty, tiptoe out  to the edge of the treeline, wait til the light comes up, fire.  He was raised in Wyoming by wolves I used to joke.  We met in NM at work, then were best friends in NM an AZ for 25 years.  He died a few weeks ago, 65, of cancer.  Miss him a lot, and will for life.

What is amazing is compared to deer you can get very close to Elk, like tecum0tha says.  I've been able to walk or ride within 25 yards of elk many times over the past 30 years, in mountain timber.  Like jackrabbits, they like to hold until you are almost on them.  They make a lot of noise, so you can find them in the woods, or little clearings.  And you won't scare them just stepping close, breaking a few sticks, etc. Any gun you make that will hit out to 100 yards should be accurate enough. 

The key is to find them and then be in shape to get close before some other hunter fires a shot and they slip into the timber. I've seen a small herd several times out grazing in the pre-dawn fields, slowly heading towards timber as they graze as the light comes up.  About sunrise they're within 20 yards of the treeline, still grazing, then if they hear a vehicle coming they just step the few feet into the trees.  I watched them doing this several times, scouting on foot.  They almost always are out of sight the last 30 seconds before the truck rounds the bend into sight.  The truck drives slowly by, hunters expectantly looking out the windows on both sides.  Not knowing that 50 yards away I'm sitting, and also a herd is in the trees on the other side of the clearing. For every herd you DO see, there are 20 you never saw.

[Hungry Horse]

 You’ve got it right, forget .54’s go with a .58. Round balls are my preference, but if you get a chance at an elk hunt, or a moose hunt, a big conical does the job. And the molds for .58 are easy to get, and cheap. Get a thirty inch tapered barrel, with a gain twist.

  Hungry Horse

[tecum-tha]

The largest available caliber for the dimension of the barrel makes for an easy carrying rifle.
My original Jaeger only has a 26" barrel. .65 cal
Lightweight and with stopping power shooting a .630 round ball. Super handy to carry barrel up or down with a sling or in a Kifaru gun bearer for hands free convenience.

[Glenn Hurley Jr.]

Another barrel maker that makes the barrel you are interested in is Ed Rayl from West Virginia.  I completed a rifle just as you described  with a 42” Rayl swamped barrel with a Red maple stock that weighs 7.6 pounds.  Deluxe Siler lock with a single trigger..  Our flintlock only post Christmas season in PA just ended today and my .54 was a joy to carry..  There is a huge difference between my 50 caliber straight barrel and the swamped 54.  The straight barreled rifle feels so muzzle heavy by comparison.