Author Topic: L&R Lock Quality  (Read 4678 times)

Offline Bob Gerard

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L&R Lock Quality
« on: December 14, 2021, 04:34:53 AM »
I am going to be working on a French Dragoon Flintlock pistol kit which should be a nice challenge. I had about an hour today to look through the parts and was a bit taken aback by the quality (or lack thereof?) of the lock. It is an L&R Classic Flintlock (with bridled pan). It seemed that most everything was cast, including the tumbler. I am not a locksmith at all and don't know, but I thought most tumblers were forged or cut... anyway I spent a bit of time sanding the lock plate and buffing it with a wire wheel but the plate still has a lot of pitting (casting voids?). I dont know how much I can remove to get it looking better.
I am not sure how long this lock will last, and cerrtainly not sure how fast it will be, but at least it throws a hefty amount of sparks (so far).
I have a 38 year old L&R Durrs Egg that seems far superior than this lock (except it went through two broken cast main springs). Is this quality normal for L&R or maybe I got one that missed the CQ guy?









« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 04:47:56 AM by Bob Gerard »

Offline albert

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2021, 06:05:19 AM »
About 20 yrs. ago I  was replacing a lock on a rifle with an L&R  ,and the mainspring broke on the second time it was cocked , I  hope their quality is better by now.
j albert miles

Birddog6

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2021, 06:11:38 AM »
I’m a amazed it works at all 🤣. I went around & around with them on some
poorly built locks 15-18 yrs ago. I have bought 1 since as customer HAD to have
a L&R. About $150 in more parts & shipping, & redrilling half of the holes straight,
 I finally got it working.
 I will never buy another one. Cant say for now, but at that time their customer service
was totally useless. If you gave me a brand new one right now I would toss it in the scrap
pan & say “Thanks, but I don’t need the headaches “

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2021, 07:03:15 AM »
Most lock parts are cast, unless you buy one of the CNC/custom made varieties. Those don't look like casting voids on your plate, just the typical surface pin holes.

Where did you get the correct French dragoon barrel?
Psalms 144

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2021, 02:24:35 PM »
The barrel is from MBS (the kit is from them).

Offline smart dog

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2021, 03:15:07 PM »
Hi Bob,
Here is a thread I did on working over an L&R Queen Anne lock.  Different lock but many of the tasks are the same.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg607217#msg607217

dave
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Offline alacran

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2021, 03:24:33 PM »
For a while L&R had issues with the QC. As far as warranty service in the last 3 years, all has been extremely positive. Maybe I have been lucky but I have had great performance from their locks. I have one just like the one you got in my Bucks County rifle. It is fast and easy on flints.
Wire wheeling a lock will not get rid of pits. You have to file them or sand them off.
That lock seems rather large for a pistol.

A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2021, 03:26:25 PM »
Thanks Dave- your tutorials are always really helpful. I had missed this one until now. Hopefully I have the skills and materials to accomplish some of what you've done.

Offline L. Akers

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2021, 04:00:27 PM »
My experience with L&R locks has been very positive.  True, they do need some smithing, but their quality is as good or better than most and they have forged springs.  I think only Kibler would surpass them.  I was once looking at a particular model of lock from another well known, highly respected  lock maker and of the 6 examples the dealer had in stock 2 could not be fired from full cock because the sear screw holes were so far off their proper location.  The other 4 had horrendously heavy trigger pulls.  I bought an L&R.  L&R's customer service is also great.  I once had a lock for 10 years before I finally put it on a gun.  On an elk hunt the frizzen spring broke.  L&R replaced it at no charge.  Same with a lock that had the wrong bridle installed, replaced at no charge.  L&R's line of lock styles covers anything from pre-revolution through the end of the muzzleloading era.  I like 'em.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2021, 05:21:23 PM »
The barrel is from MBS (the kit is from them).

While MBS does have some splendid choices for some Euro pistols, especially French, the barrels offered don’t resemble originals. Take a close look at this one.





« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 05:24:26 PM by Clark Badgett »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2021, 05:29:27 PM »
I had a Queen Anne that was a champ of a lock. That was back in the 80's. I have a Classic in my box O' locks that looks good....must be an old one.  Otherwise, I don't often use them, if you look at guns for sale here, most others don't either.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2021, 05:49:50 PM »
I had trouble with the only L&R lock I have ever used, a TC RPL lock, I bought it 3 years ago. The first one had a huge casting flaw in the plate, sent it back. The replacement had the cock incorrectly installed on the tumbler where the cock only grazed the corner of the cock stop, sent it back. When the second one came back they had ground the tumbler shaft down for a correct cock fit but had raised a burr in the process. They had used some kind of press to force the tumbler shaft back through the lock plate burr and all, the tumbler wouldn't rotate even slightly without great cocking pressure, poor if any QC.

By this time my $180 lock had cost me $210 including shipping back twice by priority mail.

I threw up my hands, fixed the lock myself and vowed never to buy another lock from the company.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 05:58:00 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2021, 07:05:50 PM »
When I first started building flintlocks I used L&R locks because their locks seemed more like the ones I saw on original Gillespie rifles.

Somehow I acquired a L  & R  Durs Egg, I used it on a rifle and it was a great lock! Sparked like a Zippo lighter😊 Then I used other L & R locks i.e. small Manton's (some great some terrible) also their large Ashburn round tailed Hawken lock which were not good sparkers at all. Always had to tinker on them to get them to be reliable. Finally bought a Chambers Late Ketlsnd and have been using them since. Sorry but no more L&R's for me!
Dennis
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Online bama

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2021, 07:37:27 PM »
Most supplier's will let you spec the lock you want with your parts set unless the lock is inlet already. Over the years I have used just about every brand of lock and they all worked and was better than me starting from scratch, I have learned though that some take a lot more work to make a lock usable. I rank locks like I rank cars. You have cheaper cars the Volkswagen, the you have the mid class cars like Fords and Chevy's, then you have the high class cars like Caddy's and Lincoln's and finally you have the sports cars like the mustang's and the Vette's. The quality you get in a lock depends on how much money you spend, just like anything else. I have found that L&R locks are the least expensive lock on the Market today. With the CNC'd locks being the most expensive. If you look at these two types of locks side by side you can easily tell why one is more expensive than the other.

If I use an L&R lock I do so knowing it is going to take me at least 10 to 20 hours of polishing, cleaning casting lines, trimming screws, etc. to make the lock into one that is acceptable. If I use a Kibler lock that is CNC'd, I do no work to make it acceptable and just a little polishing to finish. Now the Kibler lock is considerably more expensive than he L&R. You have to make a decision where to spend your time and money. I have made my decision but then I have always loved Vette's.
Jim Parker

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Offline Daryl

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2021, 08:49:29 PM »
I've always had good performance from L&R locks.  Their Durs Egg, Bailes  and Dickert locks have been super locks for me.
Daryl

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Offline Top Jaw

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2021, 09:25:40 PM »
I have an L & R classic on a Lancaster rifle that Bama built for me 20 years ago.  If it needed any tweaking, He must have done a good job, because it’s been a great lock.  Fast, smooth, and easy on flints.  Never had an issue.  Jim, if you did a little work on it, you did well.  FWIW, Like some others, I think the improved “styling” of L & R locks and the variety are their strong points.  And maybe what makes them worth using and doing some tinkering, if required. 



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« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 07:26:53 PM by Top Jaw »

Offline rick/pa

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2021, 12:45:05 AM »
I've only used 2 L&R locks, a Late English lock on a Southern Mountain rifle in 1977, and a Durs Egg on a half stock rifle in 1980. The English lock had problems with the frizzen opening. After a couple years I sent it back to L&R and they replaced the frizzen spring with an improved version at no charge. L&R's strong point seems to be the variety of styles offered. Both locks work fine now but my last several rifles have all used Chambers locks, i.e. large Siler, English round faced lock, and the Late Ketland lock. If I do another one I might try one of Jim Kiblers CNC locks.  Gotta beat the lung cancer first.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2021, 01:36:56 AM »
I have used a lot of L & R locks over the years.  During the last quarter of the 20th C, their percussion lock was all we used on the Fraser River Hawken that Don Robinson's (RIP) shop produced, and they required very little if any tinkering to make them suitable.
More recently, I have had issues that required some careful thought and re-working to make them suitable, and I have sent the company my observations together with an extensive collection of photographs to illustrate my concerns.  They didn't even reply to my messages, let alone remedy the deficiencies.
In this instance, we are looking at the Ashmore (Hawken) flintlock.  In this first image, you can see that the assembler has ground the sear spring way too short, causing the working end of the spring to bear on the sear way back along the sear.  This creates an extremely heavy trigger pull to the point that it is very difficult to trip the lock when out of the rifle.  Coupled with that, the sear's boss where the screw passes has a rounded back shoulder, further inhibiting the action of the spring.  This is evident in the second image where the contact point is clearly visible.  So there are two jobs here, ie:  lengthen the sear spring and provide a proper contact point for the spring's working end to contact the sear.  The next image shows the sear having been filed to take care of the second issue.









Also in this picture you can see that I have lengthened the spring and tapered the working arm.

To stretch the spring, I first heated the spring red and unfolded the metal flat, gently tapping while red with  a hammer to remove irregularities.  While I had it flat, I tapered the working part both in thickness and in width.  This is simple file and polish work, requiring only a few minutes.  Then the spring was re-heated red and a new bend applied so that the working arm was longer by nearly 1/4".  this solved two issues, ie:  the tip of the spring was now in the correct spot on the sear, and the bend was further inside the lock plate, making inletting easier.  I have photographed a before and after spring together to illustrate the change.










The final picture shows the spring installed.  The action now is crisp, light, and solid.  The company wasn't interested in rectifying the issues, to my great disappointment.  I will address a third issue when I return....

The next issue and it's a problem for lots of locks other than L & R's too.  And that is the sear screw bottoms against the bridle before the threads stop the screw from going in too far.  This jams the bridle against the tumbler.  The easy fix is to back the sear screw out a turn or so but this goes against my idea of how a lock should work.  So to allow the screw to go in far enough to bottom on the THREADS and not the bridle, I just put the screw into the chuck of my drill press and with a 6" bill bastard file with the edge ground safe, I shorten the height of the head from the inside, resting the safe edge of the file against the shaft of the screw.  It is necessary to take off some metal, but a trail and error fit and repeat in the press gets the job done.  Now the screw bottoms against the threads and the lock plate and the tumbler is still allowed to rotate as it should.  These screws are heat treated, so one needs a good new file for this job.
This pictures shows the screw having been altered as I described.




« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 03:28:26 AM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Birddog6

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2021, 02:47:04 AM »
The first 2 I had issues with were Jaeger locks. 8-9 shots & dead flint & No Sparks.  After messing with them for a year, I met face to face with them at Friendship.  They actually told me 8-9 shots out of a flint was normal flint usage. I said that is strange, because I can take that 9 shot dead flint out of the L&R lock & get 60-80 more shots out of my Chambers Deluxe Siler.  Which is what I had been doing, saving the old flints for the Chambers locks.
Then they proceeded to inform me the Jaeger lock springs & frizzens were made defective from the start, and they would SELL me a new frizzen & springs to make these 2 locks work correctly ? Oh, and they want the old ones back . :o Needless to say, that didn't set well with me & I came unglued. ;D   I was doing pretty good til he got to the Selling me the parts part, to replace the ones he just admitted they made wrong. 

The other issue I had was with a L&R Classic. Why I let the guy talk me into it, I'll never know. It looked like my 4 yr old grandson built it. Rough castings. Screws holding parts on canted & not 90 deg.  Main spring scraping the side plate, you could feel the lock grinding when you cocked it.  No sear pressure at all.  They sent me 5 springs & 3 tumblers til got them to even Fit. When I got it, it took 14# of pressure to trip the sear Without a spring on the sear arm ! When I got done I had worked on this stupid lock over a week & had $85. in shipping parts back & forth. I swore right then, never again.  If I have to build a rifle that requires a L&R lock, I won't build it, period.

Now in their favor, I will always admit they have some awesome Looking locks & a exceptional variety.  If they could consistently build them to work & back their work, they could OWN the lock business.  At the time, their warranty was 90 days.

Maybe they have it all straightened out now.  But I won't be their test dummy anymore. 

Offline Shopdog

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2021, 06:09:49 AM »
I'm not a lock expert when it comes to tuning by any stretch of the imagination.  However, I will say I've had several L&R locks over the years that I ended up replacing for one reason = the fly rests on a post in the tumbler which results in slop and that makes for hang ups.  Having said this I've had some L&R locks that did fine with it but at the end of the day I prefer Davis, Chambers, and Kibler locks  since the fly has it's own integral post and it never has issues hanging up.  I've since stuck with Chambers and Kibler for "out of the box" performance. 
Joe
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Offline alacran

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2021, 03:56:22 PM »
Three or four years ago, a friend gave me a lefthanded L&R classic. It was new, and had a cast mainspring which was very weak. I called them up, they asked me to return the spring, and they sent me a forged spring with instructions on the lock modification to make it fit. I got the spring back in a week.
Last year the Durr's Egg on my Smoothbores mainspring broke. It was an older lock with a cast mainspring. They asked me to send the lock back to them since the pivot pin had to be moved and they were all set up to do it. I sent the lock on a Monday, got it back the following Saturday. They plugged up the old pivot hole and replaced the cast spring with a forged mainspring.
 A friend at my local gun club bought a used rifle from another friend, it had a Durr's Egg lock on it, his frizzen spring broke. He asked me what he should do. I gave them L&R's phone #, and told him to call them. They had him send the lock back. He got the lock back in a week with a new frizzen spring. By the way I never have paid for return shipping and neither did my friend.
I know a lot of folks had problems with L&R in the late 90's and into the 2000's. But for the past four years their warranty service is second to none.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Birddog6

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2021, 04:04:51 PM »
That is good to hear.  Maybe someone finally woke up there.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2021, 06:33:55 AM »
I agree that the guys at L&R are great at helping their customers. My first L&R lock suffered a broken main spring and I got a replacement one (that was about 25 or more years ago). The second one broke last year, so someone suggested I call them since they redesigned the Durrs Egg lock a bit and the new springs will not fit the older lock plates (and are not cast)
The man there (I forget his name) asked me to send him my lock. He said they would replace the spring and fill the old mounting hole and re-drill the new one for the new spring.
Sure enough in a week's time the lock was sent back to me all repaired with a nice note. It mentioned that the lock is actually 39 years old! Man time flies LOL.
I am hopeful this lock stands the test of time and lots of use!

Offline elk killer

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2021, 12:06:25 PM »
They for sure know how to build a good quality lock....so why dont they?
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: L&R Lock Quality
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2021, 04:50:00 PM »
I have used many L&R locks over the years with great results. I’ve found them to be fine  folks to do business with. Maybe I’m just lucky.
Bob
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