Brown Bess Kit that was given to me ( pictures added )

[Top Jaw]

Stock was definitely worth saving.  Great grain through the wrist.  And a nice figure in butt. 

[mountainman]

This project is a new experience for me and a fun one, but now I have to ask what's the best way to fasten this inlay on the thumbpiece, I understand I have to install a tang bolt bottom up through the rear extension of the trigger guard through the wrist to thread onto the inlay? The inlay has a small lug where the bolt would thread into, I imagine you would have to use a flat nose tap, and to be sure that the bolt is properly aligned.
Any ideas on how is the best way to proceed on this? And the hole in the wrist is already pre drilled.
Thanks in advance.

[Steve_Rose]

This project is a new experience for me and a fun one, but now I have to ask what's the best way to fasten this inlay on the thumbpiece, I understand I have to install a tang bolt bottom up through the rear extension of the trigger guard through the wrist to thread onto the inlay? The inlay has a small lug where the bolt would thread into, I imagine you would have to use a flat nose tap, and to be sure that the bolt is properly aligned.
Any ideas on how is the best way to proceed on this? And the hole in the wrist is already pre drilled.
Thanks in advance.

Drill/tap a hole into the stud on the under side of the the thumbpiece inlay that will accept a machine screw threaded into the tapped hole. Make the screw short enough that its head can be sunk into the wood and hidden underneath the trigger guard.

[kutter]

This project is a new experience for me and a fun one, but now I have to ask what's the best way to fasten this inlay on the thumbpiece, I understand I have to install a tang bolt bottom up through the rear extension of the trigger guard through the wrist to thread onto the inlay? The inlay has a small lug where the bolt would thread into, I imagine you would have to use a flat nose tap, and to be sure that the bolt is properly aligned.
Any ideas on how is the best way to proceed on this? And the hole in the wrist is already pre drilled.
Thanks in advance.

I would finish inlet the thumb piece inlay first since it is pre-inletted now.
Probably not a lot of room for moving it around, just enough to get it straight.

Then use a drill bit that fits snug in the pre-drilled hole they provided you.
Clamp the inlay in place and run the drill thru the hole from the bottom trigger guard inlet up into the stud on the back of the inlay.

Just run the drill enough for the drill to leave a center point in the brass stud.
Don't attempt to drill a hole in the stud at this point as you don't really know if the bit is going to be centered on the stud,,,and #2,,the drill bit that fits the pre-drilled hole will be way to large as a 'tap-drill' size bit.

Once the stud is marked,,remove it and see if it is reasonably centered in the stud.
If it is and the size of the thread on the screw to be used can be drilled and tapped into it w/o run-out to the outside edge,,then you are OK there.
Go ahead an D&T the stud with the proper size drill for it.
It's a blind hole and you use a plug tap to finish cutting the threads to the bottom of it.
Not difficult, just take your time

If the center is way off,,then you will have to use a smaller dia screw size for a the attachment thread.
But, you can use the same scew that slides thru the pre drilled hole.
If the pre-drilled hole accepts a #8 for example, but a #8 thread would be off center to the point of cutting outside of the stud diameter,,,then just turndown and thread the last 1/2" of that #8 screw down to a #6 machine screw size.
That will make it so it will be contained within the dia of the brass stud.
It will be plenty strong for the attachment of the thumplate and the trigger guard tang.

With that figured,,now put the trigger guard in the stock and clamp.
Leave the thumb plate off.
Take the same drill bit that slides down the predrilled hole and from the top run it down and this time you can drill right through the guard. A clearance fit for the long screw.
Then counter sink hole on the outside of the guard for the head of the screw.

It will usually take some fitting of the final thread length so the screw draws the parts down tight and does not bottom out before then in the blind hole in the back side of the thumb plate

[smart dog]

Hi,
Here is how the thumb plate is anchored on Brown Bess muskets. The bolt anchors the trigger guard behind the bow, the tail of the trigger plate, and the thumb plate.  In this case, the thumb plate from a Pedersoli Bess was already drilled for the bolt so I had to line things up carefully.




















dave

[mountainman]

Thanks gentlemen!! Steve, Kutter, and Smartdog for the explanation and photos, this will give me the guidance I need. Interestingly there's some variation and limitations in this project partly because of it being a preshaped and pre inletted kit, and also known as the Officers fusil, which I will do as much as I can that is historically correct.
Thanks again for your kind reply!

[mountainman]

Well I got it done. Thanks for all your advice!!

[Daryl]

Nice job.

[mountainman]

Nice job.

Thanks 👍

[mountainman]

Now I'm thinking of inletting my ramrod pipes, and I would like to remove some wood along the ramrod channel especially on the rails to lower the heights, the channel is too deep i think, but it has small metal rammer around a 1/4" thick, does anyone know where the rail height should be? and while I'm removing wood along the fore stock there's this bulb of wood around the entry pipe, question is how proud should this be, and how is the best way to shape this? and then one more question how far back should the front of the nose cap be from the muzzle?

[smart dog]

Hi,
Make the top of the ramrod channel about half the height of the pipes and ramrod.  You can vary that depending on your preferences.  It can go a little lower or higher and that variation is seen on originals. The swell at the rear pipe is important.  It is hard to know what the time period your gun fits in but the swell went from prominent on early muskets and much more subtle on later ones. I suggest a subtle swell.  The swell begins at the step in the stock is widest at the widest swell of the rear pipe tang and then gradually fades away toward the lock. It is very important to understand that the swell is only out to the sides and not down.  The lower profile of the stock should not show any swell through the rear pipe. Here are some picture showing early and late examples.
early





later





I use paper patterns to make sure both sides are even but the swells on original guns are often uneven.

On a full length British Brown Bess musket, the distance from the muzzle to the end of the nose cap is 4.5"  However, on a fusil it may be a little shorter depending on the bayonet.  If you have a bayonet, measure the length of the socket and add 1/4" and then a hair more.  The correct fitting of a bayonet should have about 1/4" of barrel extending beyond the socket when mounted. Then you need a small gap between the back of the socket and the nose cap. That is how a bayonet should be fitted to be really used rather than a prop in a costume drama.

dave   

[Craig Wilcox]

You've got some fun work to do, take your time, listen to the guys who have done it before.  It will be done and you will be proud of your work.
That wood looks to be right pretty!

[mountainman]

Thanks Dave!! You been very helpful with those photos and description. I do not have a bayonet for this gun, but the lug on this barrel for the bayonet is 2" from the muzzle to the center of the lug, my overall barrel length is 37 -1/4" ,  I'm thinking if I cut the wood back that can also change
my rr pipe layout, so now a good question is how much to leave on the nose cap area?? Can you go by lug placement?

[smart dog]

Hi Mountainman,
I have data that should help you.  Your barrel is the same length as the the pattern 1776 artillery carbine so maybe data from that gun found in Bailey's "Pattern Dates for British Ordnance Small Arms" might help.  There are 3 pins and lugs that anchor the barrel and a 4th lug for the forward sling swivel.  Lugs are soldered 10 11/16", 18 7/16", and 32 1/8" from the breech.  The sling swivel lug is 26 3/8" from the breech.  There should be a ramrod pipe installed just behind the forward sling swivel such that the swivel rest on top of the pipe when flopped backward.  That prevents the sling from blocking the ramrod channel when returning the rod to its channel.  I don't expect your kit has these same measurements but they should serve to give you an idea how things come together and you can modify it from there.  Your bayonet lug/sight 2" from the muzzle suggests it is set up for a bayonet with a full 4" long socket like a full sized Brown Bess bayonet.  For a carbine, the lug would normally be about 1 1/2" - 1/5/8" from the muzzle.  So assume a 4" long socket, another 1/4" set back from the muzzle when installed and a little extra space so the socket does not hit the nose cap. So the front of your nose cap might logically be about 4 5/16" from the muzzle.  On an original artillery carbine the stock (nose cap) ends 3 5/8" from the muzzle because the bayonet socket is 3 1/8" long.  I don't know how your barrel lugs are positioned but you want the hole for the lug nearest the muzzle to be at least 5/16"-1/2" behind the rear edge of the nose cap and the forward end of your first ramrod pipe about 5/16"-1/2" behind the barrel pin hole. 

The pin holes for the ramrod pipes on a original artillery carbine should be 13 1/16", 19 13/16" and 25 3/8" from the breech.  The fourth pipe on this carbine is a long trumpet style pipe secured by 2 pins 28 7/8" and 30 13/16" from the breech.  I don't know if yours has that long pipe but a regular pipe could be centered between those measurements.  Keep in mind pipes do not need to be evenly spaced so you have some lee way to position them where most functional.

I checked my collection of TRS cast Bess and carbine bayonets.  I have a bunch and they usually end up lying on chairs.   It can be an uncomfortable experience to sit down in chairs in my house without first looking.  The ends of the "L" slot for the barrel lug are 2" and 1 3/4" from the muzzle ends of the sockets.  On my carbine bayonets that slot ends about 1 3/8" from the forward ends of the socket.  That gives you a sense of how one might fit on your barrel and you can modify the socket and slot for a custom fit if needed.

Hope this helps.

dave   
 

[mountainman]

Thanks Dave for that insight, that helps me a lot.
So my front lug is already installed and pinned at 5 3/16" from the muzzle, if I cut the wood back to 4 5/16" that will only allow less than a inch for the nose cap, and there I'm not sure how long those nose cap actually are? And I realize that I may have to make some adjustments on lug placement and also my rr pipes.
Thanks for explaining these details I never thought of before, like the sling swivel for example.







And they're only 3 pipes.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I don't know what this gun is trying to represent.  The flared pipe is the forward one.  You may want to consider a nose band rather than nose cap.  Those bands were used on fusils, carbines, and Besses prior to the pattern 1748.  For a fusil, a nose band 5/8" wide would be appropriate.  Here are some examples.  The first is a pattern 1760 light infantry carbine:









A pattern 1730/40 Brown Bess:








A private purchase officier's fusil:







What caliber is your barrel?

dave

[mountainman]

Thanks again Dave for your time and effort, It was mentioned earlier in this topic that this kit is a British Officers model musket, so apparently not a true Brown Bess but similar.
The bore size is .650
I did find what I believe is what you're talking about that must be a band instead of a nose cap.

[smart dog]

Hi,
So your barrel is carbine bore.   Historically, it would be loaded with a 0.615" ball.  A Brown Bess musket was 0.75-0.76 caliber shooting 0.69"-0.71" balls.  That is a noseband but I've never seen any installed that were pushed into the ramrod channel.  That channel is filed away at the muzzle as you saw in my previous photos.  Installing the band as it is will result in a very clumsy looking stock at the nose band. 

FYI, there were no ordnance issued officer fusils.  There was no official pattern.  Officers purchased them privately and they had to meet certain requirements for bore, swivels, and mounting a bayonet.  Sometimes regimental colonels would purchase a batch made by a private maker and issue (actually sell) them to his officers. Allowing officers to carry fusils depended on senior leadership.  General William Howe favored them for service in North America but Generals Burgoyne, Clinton, and Cornwallis were strongly opposed to them.  In their view, officers should focus on leading their men not loading and shooting.

dave 

[mountainman]

That first nose piece of your pictures looks good, and I like it very much, I believe I may use a different brass sheet for it and eliminate the ramrod groove.
Thanks for your information on the Officers fusil, it would make sense.
Tomorrow I want to lay out the plan on the location of the muzzle and the rr pipes, and to see how it will hold out .
Thanks again for all your information, I greatly appreciate it.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Use 0.03"-0.04" thick brass for the nose band and thin the ends that fold over the barrel channel a little to make it easy to bend.  Of course anneal the brass before bending.  Good luck.

dave 

[mountainman]

Hi,
Use 0.03"-0.04" thick brass for the nose band and thin the ends that fold over the barrel channel a little to make it easy to bend.  Of course anneal the brass before bending.  Good luck.

dave

Thanks that is great advice!! This is such a great forum of sharing information and friendly folks, again thanks for your contribution.

[mountainman]

I've been doing a search, but it doesn't seem like that there is too much information out there about staining and finishing walnut, is there any information? I think what I have is American walnut.
Any help would be appreciated. It seems like there was some older post back in the day when photo bucket was being used, and I can't see those pictures of sample. Thanks!

[smart dog]

Hi,
If you want to make it look like English walnut click on the link and scroll down to where I explain how to do that.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69571.0

A musket or carbine does not have the quality finish of a fine sporting gun.  British ordnance usually painted the stocks with a linseed oil varnish that filled the grain pretty quickly and left a slightly gloss or satin sheen.  These guns did not have a dull "in the wood" oil finish.  If you want a really fine finish regardless, apply the finish with 220 grit sandpaper and sand the finish and wood to create a slurry of finish and sawdust. Let that dry to a crust and sand it smooth with 220 or 320 grit paper. That fills the open pores of walnut very quickly and can be repeated or often just apply finish sparingly thereafter until you build up the sheen you desire.  I use Sutherland Welles polymerized tung oil but any oil varnish mix is fine.  Tried and True linseed oil varnish is a good choice.

dave

[mountainman]

Thanks for that link Dave, so tomorrow I plan on doing some samples for staining.
I would like to engrave some numbers on the thumbpiece, but I'm not too sure what to put on, being a spec gun? Any numbers that were on the originals is what I was thinking.







I thought I would share some pics, I know on originals the barrel tang would have been square, but when I received this kit the barrel tang was already inletted and shaped.
I detailed the barrel breech, and shaped the bulb area around the entry pipe, and here is another detail I didn't think about was the shape of the tang on the entry pipe. 
It's been interesting project, and I have learned a lot. I think I will be more prepared in advance if the event ever happens that if I would build another Bess, and I believe I would start out with a blank.
Thanks for your help, if it wouldn't have been for you, I would have overlooked many details.
So I really do appreciate it! Many Thanks!

[smart dog]

Hi,
It is looking good!  There should be a little flat around the barrel tang ending in a half circle and the apron descends from that flat in a slightly convex fashion (usually not always) as below.





I urge you to make the flats around the lock extremely thin.  The flats don't have to be even all the way around.  Often they were wider around the front of the lock but always very thin around the rest.  I often bring the contour of the stock right up to the lock plate and then swipe the top a few times with sandpaper backed by a flat piece of wood to make a very tiny flat.  With thin flats, you won't need the notch for the flint cock.
 


With respect to numbering the thumb plate, usually it was a company letter or number over the musket rack number.  The regiment number was sometimes added at the top but that was not the norm.  Usually any regiment mark was on the barrel. In a typical regiment there would be 10 companies, 8 battalion companies, 1 grenadier company, and 1 light infantry company.  Each company would have 39-42 men.  So a company number between 1 and 10 (or A and J) over a rack number between 1 and 42 would be appropriate. 



If your gun represents something picked up by an American soldier from a prisoner during the Rev War, there likely would be no markings on the plate.  They would usually be filed off by the new owner.  If your gun represents some sort of officer's fusil, since they were privately purchased, I don't know if there would be any numbers.  Possibly initials of the owner or maybe a regimental number or maybe nothing.  Good luck.

dave