Author Topic: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....  (Read 4806 times)

Offline Chris Evrard

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Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« on: December 16, 2021, 05:28:19 PM »
Hey All,

I don't post much over here in the building forum, but I decided to take a stab at making my own lockplate for a southern type rifle I built back in 2005. It has the ubiquitous Siler lock on it. I got to thinking, hmmmm can I make a Siler lockplate on my mill. Yeah, you guys who forge out your parts are going to puke in your mouth a bit...... ;) Lol.

The first attempt was looking pretty good!









Then disaster! I should have used a clearing op (adaptive path) instead of trying to deck off everything on the back. OOOOPS! :o A great way to chip $50 worth of cutting inserts in a hurry.....










But it may have been a blessing in disguise. In the second attempt I decided to cut the full depth of the bolster/boss for the frizzen pivot screw in the first op. That will keep me from having any mismatch showing when flipping the plate for the second op. It went very well!






Tonight I hope to get a chance to put all the holes in it. Then we'll see if I can get a better second operation process for the back side of the plate.

So far this is a lot of fun. It may not look like it in the picture but the tool marks are very minimal and shallow. It will be a breeze to polish when done. In fact I think I went WAY overboard on the chamfers. I forget what the step over was with the ball endmill, but the finish is crazy good!

I'll update this post as I get a usable plate and install it in my rifle.

CE

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2021, 05:41:37 PM »
Looks mighty clean!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2021, 06:05:23 PM »
CNC... You Cheater  ;D

Kinda wish at times my lil X2 was set up for that..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2021, 06:09:43 PM »
Hi Chris,
How are you going to hold the plate to fly cut the back off? Soft jaws milled to the outside profile of the plate?
Thanks,
Rob

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2021, 07:27:17 PM »
CNC... You Cheater  ;D

Kinda wish at times my lil X2 was set up for that..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

What is an X2?

Yeah, totally cheatin'............ ;D

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2021, 07:28:02 PM »
Hi Chris,
How are you going to hold the plate to fly cut the back off? Soft jaws milled to the outside profile of the plate?
Thanks,
Rob

Hey Rob,

Yes, soft jaws.




Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2021, 07:45:03 PM »
Here are a few clips.

Very shaky and hand held....... but for what it is worth, of cutting the chamfer/molding

CE








Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2021, 07:45:23 PM »
[

What is an X2?

Yeah, totally cheatin'............ ;D

Oh Its the Sieg X2 mini mill that everyone sells. Same model/Type from Cummings- Harbor Freight -  Grizzly,  with minor cosmetic changes ( mostly )
There are CNC upgrades, just not in the budget.

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2021, 11:10:38 PM »
Thanks Chris,
The spindle speed is slow from what I can see on the video what kind of end mill are  you using? I made a bunch of stuff using a similar method as you are. I also did some engraving which came out alright. I use a Haas VM1 and a Prototrac that I have in my shop
Rob

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2021, 01:52:54 AM »
Thanks Chris,
The spindle speed is slow from what I can see on the video what kind of end mill are  you using? I made a bunch of stuff using a similar method as you are. I also did some engraving which came out alright. I use a Haas VM1 and a Prototrac that I have in my shop
Rob

Yeah, I'm running a Haas TM1. Max spindle speed is 4k, so I'm maxed out. I understand the parameters can be reset for another 2k worth of rpm tho.

End mill is a .125 Lakeshore Carbide ball nose. Nice mill!

Is a vm1 similar to a vf1? Eventually I'd like to step up to a vf2ss. After my new building is complete maybe. Do you have any pictures of your engraving? Would love to see it.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2021, 02:07:13 AM »
Hi Chris,
I will take a few and send them over. I make sheepdog  whistles on the side have been for nearly 20 years. I use to donate whistles to some trials and engrave the trial title and class on the whistles. Haven't done a lot of whistles lately and havent competed in trials since 2016. But the last time I counted I had whistles in 27 countries including 2 in the Falkland Islands which was kind of neat to find out.
Rob

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2021, 02:28:20 AM »
I enjoyed this post Chris.  As meticulous as you are, those will be super functioning locks.  Keep me posted sir.   God Bless,  Marc

Offline Rolf

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2021, 12:11:38 PM »
Very impressive Chris!!  I'm left handed and I had hoped CNC would make more left handed locks available.
I would really have liked a left handed Jaeger lock from Laubach. I've asked both Laubach and Kibler why they don't make left handed versions. They said that making mirror images were to complicated to justify  the expense.

Could you explain why? I don't know anything about CNC, but thought is was like asking a CAD program to draw a mirror image.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline alacran

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2021, 01:19:58 PM »
Reminds me of a MAD Magazine that featured a guy with a gigantic Shopsmith type of machine he bought for a pricey sum, only to make toothpicks.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2021, 05:20:29 PM »
There's a place called "Chambers Flintlocks Ltd" That would sell you the exact same lock plate you're working so hard on. Cheap too....probably save alot of time and tribulations.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2021, 06:58:01 PM »
Chris, I’m finally using the Chambers round faced English lock you made w/o pan bridle on a trade gun build for myself. I wanted the best-performing round-faced English lock while still plausible for a trade gun build. It’s at the “almost a shooter now” stage of the build.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2021, 08:25:16 PM »
Hi Chris,
I will take a few and send them over. I make sheepdog  whistles on the side have been for nearly 20 years. I use to donate whistles to some trials and engrave the trial title and class on the whistles. Haven't done a lot of whistles lately and havent competed in trials since 2016. But the last time I counted I had whistles in 27 countries including 2 in the Falkland Islands which was kind of neat to find out.
Rob

Very cool. Cant wait to see 'em!

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2021, 08:27:23 PM »
There's a place called "Chambers Flintlocks Ltd" That would sell you the exact same lock plate you're working so hard on. Cheap too....probably save alot of time and tribulations.


 ;D ;D ;D I think I've heard of that outfit! Lol

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2021, 08:37:21 PM »
Very impressive Chris!!  I'm left handed and I had hoped CNC would make more left handed locks available.
I would really have liked a left handed Jaeger lock from Laubach. I've asked both Laubach and Kibler why they don't make left handed versions. They said that making mirror images were to complicated to justify  the expense.

Could you explain why? I don't know anything about CNC, but thought is was like asking a CAD program to draw a mirror image.

Best regards
Rolf

Rolf, it is just a numbers game. I've been a contractor for Chambers Flintlocks for 8 years now. I have built over 4000 locks (probably closer to 5) In that 8 years I have probably only made 4 batches of leftie Siler locks.

As for the CNC route, yes it is easy to flip/mirror your part in cad, but there is more too it than that. in most cases you'll have to make all new jigs for each part (again mirror images) and I cannot see doing less than a run of 100 locks and making any money. The CAM used to actually run the machine will also have to be updated and re-run, and proofed, etc. So, as a percentage of the cost of each lock the price in time and materials is much higher.

For example, if I make a jig to hold 10 left handed plates for machining and then make 100 locks a year, the per part costs associated with each plate are much higher than my right handed jig in which I consistently make several thousand a year.

I hope that helps. I feel for the lefties out there!!!

Best,

CE

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2021, 08:38:35 PM »
Chris, I’m finally using the Chambers round faced English lock you made w/o pan bridle on a trade gun build for myself. I wanted the best-performing round-faced English lock while still plausible for a trade gun build. It’s at the “almost a shooter now” stage of the build.

Please forward me pictures! Would love to see it Rich!

Best,

CE

Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2021, 09:13:50 PM »
Reminds me of a MAD Magazine that featured a guy with a gigantic Shopsmith type of machine he bought for a pricey sum, only to make toothpicks.

You know, it is funny how much truth is in that tidbit. One of the things that amazed me as a budding machinist was how big the equipment is for the relative size of the parts. My 1500 pound cnc lathe is the perfect size, weight and rigidity to make 8-32 and 1/4-20 screws. My 4000 pound mill is perfect for lock sized parts. For much of the crane pins, rigging parts, etc. a 14,000 pound mill the size of my extended cab pickup truck was perfect. Etc.

Now I am used to it, but in the beginning it all seemed so out of proportion!

CE

Offline tecum-tha

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2021, 10:52:37 PM »
Even though CNC is a great tool, I don't know if this is the most efficient for the task. But maybe this is not the goal anyways.
Wouldn't it be easier to cut the plates (3/16" thick or so) into the outside shape by means of laser, or water-jet, drill the holes and use the holes as a locator for the workpiece holder  and then machine it from there?
Are the current plates made by Davis, L&R and Chambers made with a cast process? Can these plates be produced more economical with this method or?
I can see that the CNC method can produce very unique plates and virtually any form with the internals of a siler or similar standardized lock.
But isn't the problem affordability?
I am always puzzled at the price point of a Traditions rifle (Made in Spain) and imported here for example or at a Knight unmentionable which is made entirely in the USA.
Traditions sells a percussion rifle for around $300 and a flintlock for about $380, the unmentionable was on sale for $200 (half off) with a GM barrel etc. We pay $170+ for a GM barrel...
The most affordable Traditions guns all make some compromise but are generally a good shooting rifle aside from their flintlocks.
It seems to me, that the biggest entry hurdle into flintlock guns is the price of a quality lock.
The tradition rifle barrels are generally quality barrels and even though button rifled, most of them are tack drivers with a developed load.
The triggers are not great, but serviceable as are the sights. The percussion locks are ok, but a little weak on the springs. The flintlocks have imho geometry issues and spring strength issues as have the more expensive Pedersoli locks. Most of these locks are flint eaters because of that and are a real deterrent for shooting flintlocks.
The L&R replacement locks (percussion and flintlock) for these rifles is pretty much one of their most expensive locks. Which I can't understand, because the demand must be high?
I was comparing the small Siler lock to a CVA Maslin lock and geometrically they are almost identical, but the lock plate shape is slightly smaller, so it won't fit.
I am currently developing a kid/youth rifle with adjustable LOP to be made with quality parts. Therefore, my interest in quality and affordability.
I wonder if a better product than the Traditions rifles can be developed at a similar price point made here. With all the shipping cost, the import, the general distributor and the retail markup, the MFG does get how much for a rifle?
Sorry for the slight OT.
 
 


Offline Chris Evrard

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2021, 12:16:43 AM »
Even though CNC is a great tool, I don't know if this is the most efficient for the task. But maybe this is not the goal anyways.You're right, it definitely is not the most efficient process! Not in a small shop like mine anyhow. But scale can change this. Number of units being produced / faster larger machines.........
Wouldn't it be easier to cut the plates (3/16" thick or so) into the outside shape by means of laser, or water-jet, drill the holes and use the holes as a locator for the workpiece holder  and then machine it from there? Yes probably. But it would have to be a much thicker piece of stock. A Siler lock is just over .30 thick when you include the boss on the back where the pan locates.
Are the current plates made by Davis, L&R and Chambers made with a cast process? Can these plates be produced more economical with this method or?Yes, most all of those plates are cast (a few exceptions) and yes, casting is WAY more economical.
I can see that the CNC method can produce very unique plates and virtually any form with the internals of a siler or similar standardized lock.
But isn't the problem affordability? Yes again. Although over the past 15 yrs or so the price of cnc'd components has steadily dropped. In our hobby it is still a matter of volume. Cnc'd components in the volume we use is still more $'s than castings
I am always puzzled at the price point of a Traditions rifle (Made in Spain) and imported here for example or at a Knight unmentionable which is made entirely in the USA.
Traditions sells a percussion rifle for around $300 and a flintlock for about $380, the unmentionable was on sale for $200 (half off) with a GM barrel etc. We pay $170+ for a GM barrel...
The most affordable Traditions guns all make some compromise but are generally a good shooting rifle aside from their flintlocks.
It seems to me, that the biggest entry hurdle into flintlock guns is the price of a quality lock.
The tradition rifle barrels are generally quality barrels and even though button rifled, most of them are tack drivers with a developed load.
The triggers are not great, but serviceable as are the sights. The percussion locks are ok, but a little weak on the springs. The flintlocks have imho geometry issues and spring strength issues as have the more expensive Pedersoli locks. Most of these locks are flint eaters because of that and are a real deterrent for shooting flintlocks.
The L&R replacement locks (percussion and flintlock) for these rifles is pretty much one of their most expensive locks. Which I can't understand, because the demand must be high?
I was comparing the small Siler lock to a CVA Maslin lock and geometrically they are almost identical, but the lock plate shape is slightly smaller, so it won't fit.
I am currently developing a kid/youth rifle with adjustable LOP to be made with quality parts. Therefore, my interest in quality and affordability.
I wonder if a better product than the Traditions rifles can be developed at a similar price point made here. With all the shipping cost, the import, the general distributor and the retail markup, the MFG does get how much for a rifle?
Sorry for the slight OT.
 
 

A few replies in line above. I cannot speak to bbl production or how the "big boys" do it though! Thanks for the thoughts. It is fun to talk about :)

Offline tecum-tha

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2021, 01:08:31 AM »
I see, on the lock plate thickness I was more thinking more about a bolted-on pan assembly like on a Pedersoli lock, where the lock plate is simply a flat piece of steel (unless they put some texture on like in some models) and the pan assembly has a slit where the plate fits in. Several roads lead to a functional lock  ;D

Offline Clint

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Re: Making my own lockplate......"progress" so far....
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2021, 05:58:51 AM »
Chris,
Don't sweat the "forging guys" I hand forge all of my lock parts, but I also use a Bridgeport to flatten things out before filing. One of the things that a lot of not metal guys miss is the fact that making complicated little things is a lot of fun. I have over a hundred files and hand saws and I sort of regard them as my toys I guess every thing in my shop is really a toy even though some of the toys weigh more than a pickup truck. Once you get bored duplicating a lock design a later period lock around the same skeleton. Have  fun.