Author Topic: Leman flint lock  (Read 2929 times)

Offline Mark H

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Leman flint lock
« on: December 20, 2021, 08:42:26 PM »
Good afternoon,

I'm thinking about building a flint Leman rifle. I'm not having much luck finding a lock with this style of double throated cock. Does anyone make a good reproduction? Or did Leman also use flintlocks without the double throated cock?

Thanks



Offline rich pierce

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2021, 09:10:03 PM »
Would be great if someone made that lock.
Option 1: L&R late English flintlock with double throated cock. Some love them. Some don’t.
Option 2: L&R RPL lock. See above.
Option 3: use a Chambers Late Ketland or Kibler SMR or Davis late English lock and replace the cock.

For the cock, contact L&R for one for their RPL locks or The Rifle Shoppe. Parts # 598C or 644C.
Andover, Vermont

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2021, 09:12:20 PM »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2021, 09:49:41 PM »
The LAST flintlock I made was an L&R Durs Egg with my own internal parts and one of their double throated cocks they call the 0-1.It IS a nice one and way better looking than the one they use on the Late English lock.For a long time I did make a Ketland that was unique to my shop with a cock nearly identical to the one in the picture you posted.These parts are in limbo now and the fate of the moulds that made them them is at stake.
Bob Roller

Offline redheart

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2021, 10:05:15 PM »
If you do an image search for Jack Brooks Leman Rifle you'll get a photo of one of these that he built.
Maybe you can figure out what lock he used and let us all know. ;D ;)

Offline okieboy

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2021, 10:45:24 PM »
 The Jack Brooks Leman rifle (that I handled) was a half-stock percussion.
Okieboy

Offline redheart

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2021, 10:55:18 PM »
The Jack Brooks Leman rifle (that I handled) was a half-stock percussion.
Yes, Okieboy, Jack Brooks makes the cappers too. ::)
At times Leman used flintlocks from other makers that had the goose neck cock.
Looking at the Jack Brooks Flint Leman, it appears that he might have rounded the "square tail" on the Davis Late Ketland lock and used either a double throated from L&R or one of the many "Rifle Shoppe" cocks. Rich did an awesome job of laying out the possibilities for you! I've seen people use the square tail lock on their Leman Flintlock copies and they look fantastic, however I've yet to find a photo of an original with this square tail. so if you're a "stickler" I'd round off the corners. ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 02:35:03 AM by redheart »

Offline okieboy

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2021, 01:42:42 AM »
Original square Leman lockplate.



 I think you can see the Leman "engraving.
Okieboy

Offline okieboy

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2021, 01:52:32 AM »
 A Leman Conestoga with square plate. Both of my Lemans have rounded plates.


Okieboy

Offline Mark H

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2021, 02:07:06 AM »
Thanks for the good suggestions. I did look at the L & R late English lock and was hoping to get something with a cock a little closer to the original Leman.

I like the squared off tail on those Leman percussion locks. Are there any examples of that on a flint lock? So far all I have seen on Leman flintlocks is the rounded tail.

I did a bit more looking around and I did find a lead on a cock that more closely matches the Leman. Check out the Elwell cock below.



I sent an email to the vendor to purchase one.

http://www.texasguntrade.com/flintcocks.htm


Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2021, 02:16:17 AM »
Original square Leman lockplate.



 I think you can see the Leman "engraving.

In the late 60's and early 70's I made a number of the "square tail"Lemans and most went to
Wes Kindig for his shop.I may still have the pattern for them.
Bob Roler

Offline redheart

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2021, 02:39:53 AM »
Original square Leman lockplate.



 I think you can see the Leman "engraving.
I failed to point out that I've yet to see an ORIGINAL Flintlock Leman Rifle with a square tail lock!
I know that the cappers are very common.

Offline redheart

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2021, 02:46:50 AM »
Thanks for the good suggestions. I did look at the L & R late English lock and was hoping to get something with a cock a little closer to the original Leman.

I like the squared off tail on those Leman percussion locks. Are there any examples of that on a flint lock? So far all I have seen on Leman flintlocks is the rounded tail.

I did a bit more looking around and I did find a lead on a cock that more closely matches the Leman. Check out the Elwell cock below.



I sent an email to the vendor to purchase one.

http://www.texasguntrade.com/flintcocks.htm
Good choice, now you'll just have to find a round tail flintlock that'll work well with a 1 7/16 throw. :)
I just looked at the TOW catalog and it said that lock has an 1 &1/2 throw. The 1 7/16 cock you ordered might not work.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 03:28:25 AM by redheart »

Offline sdilts

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2021, 03:42:13 AM »
Take a look at Liston Rice's Nock lock. It's available in round tail and pointed tail versions. The one I have measures right at 1 7/16". That's measuring from the center of the tumbler to the top of the jaw (where the bottom of the flint rests).
https://www.buckridgeflintlocks.com/

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2021, 05:11:47 AM »
If you can look in Jim Gordon's book you should be be able to see many Leman rifles with different style locks. IIRC there are 30+ Leman guns displayed with many different style locks. Great Gunmakers from the Early West - Vol. 2

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2021, 03:55:28 PM »
Hand made relics of a long ago time and uniform dimensions are not too likely.
The flintlock I made with the double throated cock was a Ketland and had a big
pan and a pointed tail that can be rounded.A local shooter had an antique rifle
with an identical lock and the lock was marked KETLAND.He shot a flintlock way
before any real interest in them developed.Chet Shoults in Lapeer Michigan was
as far as I know ,the first to offer a complete,ready to install flint LOCK in 1955 or
'56.It was a finished lock,detailed and polished inside and out and cost $35 in
Silver Certificated currency.Ted Cole in Pittsburgh shortly thereafter offed a flintlock
but it was not a quality lock and I never saw anyone buy one from him in several
years of displaying at Friendship.
  In the early 1960's,Chet Shoults lost control of his moulds and I started buying the
external parts from a man in Livonia,Michigan,H,C.Hess who used the DBA of Inter
national Arms.He later acquired the Russ Hamm Maslin moulds and the Ketland that
I made.Nothing was known about the Ketland,owner(s)? of why it even existed but
it made a good lock.Bill Large furnished an old lock and paid for the mould for the Maslin
lock but never saw any parts until I made a lock from HIS parts.
Jerry Devaudreuil later bought all of the "International Arms" inventory,parts,moulds and
all associated with it and had a lot of items he had cast and sold to any and all who needed
them.HE is now into an adult dementia and in a nursing home and his sister has control of
all he had.I have some old invoices and will see if these moulds can be saved for possible
future use.There were 2 Hawken caplock hammers I used that were from a J&S and the
Carson Hawken.I hope these moulds are nombered to match the parts.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 04:33:08 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2021, 04:07:50 PM »
If you can assemble a lock, or contract someone to do it, this is a solid choice.
http://www.texasguntrade.com/elwell.htm


Psalms 144

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2021, 05:41:32 PM »
If you’re going to build a lock from castings and you’re planning to use set triggers ask if the lock has a fly for the tumbler.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mark H

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2021, 02:57:12 AM »
Thanks for all the great input. I think I'll try to change out the cock on a round tail lock with the 1 7/16" throw. That Liston Rice Nock lock looks like a good candidate.


Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2021, 05:45:55 AM »
While there is nothing set in stone, it does seem as if the flintlock Leman was primarily intended for the Indian trade, while the percussion offering of the various grades were intended for the trade (affordable hardware store offers). There are lots of originals left, which is not surprising since I’ve read that as many as 200k of them were made between the 1840s-1860s. Search the antique subforum for Leman and enjoy.
Psalms 144

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2021, 02:53:53 PM »
While there is nothing set in stone, it does seem as if the flintlock Leman was primarily intended for the Indian trade, while the percussion offering of the various grades were intended for the trade (affordable hardware store offers). There are lots of originals left, which is not surprising since I’ve read that as many as 200k of them were made between the 1840s-1860s. Search the antique subforum for Leman and enjoy.

That is a good looking lock externally but the inside which IS the actual lock doesn't look very substantial to me.
IF I were to get back into making locks I'd use a 3 screw bridle and it would have a "fly".
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 04:28:40 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2021, 09:47:12 PM »
While there is nothing set in stone, it does seem as if the flintlock Leman was primarily intended for the Indian trade, while the percussion offering of the various grades were intended for the trade (affordable hardware store offers). There are lots of originals left, which is not surprising since I’ve read that as many as 200k of them were made between the 1840s-1860s. Search the antique subforum for Leman and enjoy.

That is a good looking lock externally but the inside which IS the actual lock doesn't look very substantial to me.
IF I were to get back into making locks I'd use a 3 screw bridle and it would have a "fly".
Bob Roller

I don’t make that lock, nor have I assembled one. I just provided a link to a source for one that comes closest to matching the Indian trade rifle posted.
Psalms 144

Offline utseabee

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Re: Leman flint lock
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2021, 12:58:44 AM »
Thanks for the good suggestions. I did look at the L & R late English lock and was hoping to get something with a cock a little closer to the original Leman.

I like the squared off tail on those Leman percussion locks. Are there any examples of that on a flint lock? So far all I have seen on Leman flintlocks is the rounded tail.

I did a bit more looking around and I did find a lead on a cock that more closely matches the Leman. Check out the Elwell cock below.



I sent an email to the vendor to purchase one.

http://www.texasguntrade.com/flintcocks.htm
You will want to make sure that the cock has the same height and throw as the one you or replacing. It will definitely affect the geometry of the lock if you don't
The difficult we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer.