Question for Bob Roller on 1144 steel

[davec2]

Bob,

I have a couple of parts I want to make out of 1144 "stress proof" steel.  I know you have used it a lot and I wanted to ask how you heat treat it. ??

Thanks

David

[Bob Roller]

Dave,
I used it for tumblers in all my locks beginning about 1963.It will machine,lathes or milling machines and threads easily
externally or internally as in the little 6x40 hammer screws I used.
The tumblers,after being shaped to whatever profile needed and all cuts such as for the link,fly and both notches I heat it
with a #4 tip of a Presto-Lite torch to a bright orange and drop it into an old metal coffee can full of 5W-30 oil.**
I get it out with a magnet and wash it with kerosene or simply wipe it with an old towel.Polish it bright and using a Bernz-o-Matic
torch it is then drawn to a straw color and allowed to air cool.I know this is considered by many to be a hillbilly method but it
works and my absence of broken tumblers says it does.My locks are all over the world used by shooters and some are from the 1970's.
ALL of my lock tumblers start as a disc with the diameter of 1and1/4" and then the main shank was turned to .312 and the width
of the tumbler was ,230-.232 and the small shank usually was ,140.
   If you are making locks or only 1 recommend 0-1 for the sear and fly and the bridle and link for the mainspring can be 1018 and my
screws were and still are 12L14 and pins are drill rod. I hope this helps  with  what you are doing..
Bob Roller

Bill Large used 1144 for years to make rifle barrels and no trouble reported and I helped him with cutting it to whatever length was needed and
then faced it and center drilled it,drilled and reamed and rifled it to what was called for in the order,I did a LOT of the 50 calibers.
During the process of planing it to octagon he showed me how to see if it tried to flex or spring by sliding an adjustable parallel under the
barrel that was held between centers rhat were high enough to allow this to be done.
** Indicates a fine screen is halfway down in the can so the item being quenched will not go all the way down and is easy to reach with a magnet for retrieval.

[davec2]

Bob,

Thank you so much for the information.  I do need to make a new tumbler for a pair of locks that I used on this pair of Dragoon pistols.  The half cock notch on both is in a bad place....it puts the flint so far forward that the frizzen doesn't close unless I cut the back of a flint short.  Always annoys me.  I will try to weld up the tumblers, and then recut the notch, first but I suspect that I will have to change the notch geometry enough that making new tumblers would be the best option.

Thanks again and merry Christmas !!

David

[little joe]

Bob I had 2 50 cal bbl,s that were ULTRA good and you may of had a hand in them. 1 of them was gain twist Hawken style tapered but still heavy and the other std. 50 cut 1 in 48. Wish I had them back. Have a good Christmas.

[Bob Roller]

Bill Large is now 36 years gone and I still miss him and am thankful for all he taught me.I did help him build a gain twist rifling machine but do not remember if it was used on larger calibers or not.There's no reason not to and I did a few smaller bores on it.The 1144 was NOT in any way a certified gun barrel steel but it was stable during all machining operations including planing from round to octagon as was proved by using the parallels which are adjustable.I worked in a local machine shop several times that used 1144 TG&P (Turned,Ground and Polished)for something we made for the coal mining industry 50 years ago.
Bob Roller

[Craig Wilcox]

Dave, a fine pair of pistols.  I am sure that between you and Roller you can get those tumblers cut correctly.

Now, can either of you tell me, or show me, how the little shelf is cut for the fly?  And some flys ride on a pin in the tumbler, some have a pin on the fly that sticks in a hole in the tumbler.  Between the two, can you tell me why the difference?  I can see a vertical pin installed in the tumbler - is the fly with it's own post usually cast or milled?

And a Merry Christmas to all!

[davec2]

Craig,

I'll let Bob tell you the correct answers.  My only experience is in making one replacement fly that had the integral pin.  I machined a little disk with the pin sticking out, cut away anything that didn't look like the fly profile I needed, then heat treated it.

[Bob Roller]

Dave, a fine pair of pistols.  I am sure that between you and Roller you can get those tumblers cut correctly.

Now, can either of you tell me, or show me, how the little shelf is cut for the fly?  And some flys ride on a pin in the tumbler, some have a pin on the fly that sticks in a hole in the tumbler.  Between the two, can you tell me why the difference?  I can see a vertical pin installed in the tumbler - is the fly with it's own post usually cast or milled?

And a Merry Christmas to all!

On my locks the fly and pin were made from a piece of 7/32" 0-1 oil hardening steel.I used a hollow mill I made with a reamed hole of .086 diameter and the inverted "V" it set in was .075 deep.The fly that hangs from the small bearing of the tumbler will have to be stopped with
two tiny pins exactly placed to stop the fly as it cams the sear over the half cock and the rear one must allow the sear to engage full cock.
I milled the inverted "V" on a heavy drill press,old American Delta running at maximum RPM and used a 5/64 or 3/32 stub lenght end mill with 3 flutes at a depth of .075.The "wing" of the fly was .070-.072 so it had room to work with no interference from the bridle.I have never made one with the fly between the tumbler and the lock plate.The fly and pin are integral.
  The reason for the difference goes to the personal ideas about lock making.I think I made one with the fly hanging off the small bearing of the tumbler and pins for stops but it was a very long time ago.The 7/32 0-1 was milled to a thickness of ,070=.072 with a narrow strip of about .080 to acommodate the little hollow mill which is a shop made tool. Lock making as opposed to assembly of prefabricated is another skill set altogether.Selecting what material to use and the finding it in affordable quantities is step one and then comes at least SOME machine shop skills plus a bit of blacksmithing (springs) and in the absence of a milling machine,saws and files must be used instead.
I combined both.I also make my own screws from 12L14.The lock screws were copies of those found in high end English locks of the mid 19th century and I used 5/32 diameter which is the size of the screw heads and the threads are 4x40 or 4x48 or .107-.110 diameters.
I found both sizes in a fine Brazier lock made in 1865 so it's not a critical thing.Drill rod of 5/32 is also used and I used it  for years.
Bob Roller

[Craig Wilcox]

Bob, Dave, I really appreciate the education I get here on the forum, and the two of you are most generous with your information.
I do know a competent machinist fellow down the highway aways that helps me with things like this, but he has never seen a fly, much less help mill the fly and it's recess.

[Bob Roller]

There is no need to with hold information on  such odd subjects as we discuss here.At 85 I have no way of knowing how much longer I will be here to post anything.For the last 3 years beginning of July 8,2018 when I met a lovely young woman working in a grocery store and after finding she had a master's degree in American history with WW2 being her focus.I told her I knew several former enemy military people,Germans and she got really interested.We have maintained a friendship and constant contact ever since.She knows almost all my life experiences that are fit to talk about and she now had most of my small library about WW2.She now lives and teaches in N.C. and has a fiance who knows what a treasure he has in his life.I was hoping to pass on these experiences to someone and a whim purchase of 1/2 gallon of chocolate milk brought it about.My thanks to Aldi's for hiring her.That brought about a beautiful friendship between a fossilizing old man and a beautiful young person that WANTS to learn.
Now that cold weather is here I can take more time from the shop work and I have cut back a lot on that.My shop knowledge is limited to what I did. I have no experience with CNC manufacturing but have used common tools to accomplish what I want to do and it's now all over the world.It DOES take a good long time to develop shop hand skills and learning how to safely use machines is a must.I have worked in other machine shops and one was in optics and making form tools for different lenses that had to be right.Another was a Babbitt bearing shop I mentioned yesterday,THAT was a hoot.
I have done a number of other jobs as well as these muzzle loader parts and that includes cars,flying a plane*and of course helping my wife raise two boys that are now middle age men with families to become useful people with families of their own.
Bob Roller
*Nine years in a local flying club but no longer current and no further interest.