3F powder with .063 Vent hole Flintlock question?

[Hunterdude]

I am quite new to Flintlocks, but when I clean my Pedersoli Frontier .50 with a wet patch I can clearly hear a "hiss" sound as I swab the bore, the wet patch makes a nice seal and trapped air ( in bore) is escaping the Vent with enough force to make a hiss sound. This got me to thinking (dangerous, I know) but a snug fitting lubed PRB is likely also quite a good seal on the bore, I do not hear "hissing" as I load a PRB likely because I do not push it down real fast trying to have good form and not break my wood ramrod.

My question is: Are we blowing a "small" amount of the main powder charge Out the Vent as we load? Obviously not a big deal, but we work hard to get everything Very consistent for accuracy, I have not read anything about this, but may not have looked hard enough. I was thinking the full size grains may not exit, but it seems like some of the finer powder grains might....I may be over thinking it
Any thoughts or words of wisdom are welcome!

Edit: I did consider closing the frizzen on a very clean pan, then load the rifle, Then carefully open frizzen to inspect if/how much powder or powder fines may be getting pushed out during the load process, however my Pedersoli is all torn down right now to repair a wood chip around the lock plate.

[Mad Monk]

I am quite new to Flintlocks, but when I clean my Pedersoli Frontier .50 with a wet patch I can clearly hear a "hiss" sound as I swab the bore, the wet patch makes a nice seal and trapped air ( in bore) is escaping the Vent with enough force to make a hiss sound. This got me to thinking (dangerous, I know) but a snug fitting lubed PRB is likely also quite a good seal on the bore, I do not hear "hissing" as I load a PRB likely because I do not push it down real fast trying to have good form and not break my wood ramrod.

My question is: Are we blowing a "small" amount of the main powder charge Out the Vent as we load? Obviously not a big deal, but we work hard to get everything Very consistent for accuracy, I have not read anything about this, but may not have looked hard enough. I was thinking the full size grains may not exit, but it seems like some of the finer powder grains might....I may be over thinking it
Any thoughts or words of wisdom are welcome!

Edit: I did consider closing the frizzen on a very clean pan, then load the rifle, Then carefully open frizzen to inspect if/how much powder or powder fines may be getting pushed out during the load process, however my Pedersoli is all torn down right now to repair a wood chip around the lock plate.

That is going to depend on the granulation size of your main charge powder.  2F grains would be way to big to be pushed out the vent.  With 3F powder that is going to depend on if the lot of powder you are using is a large size lot or a fine size lot.   I would have to go back into powder plant grain size screens are set up.  But you will find some lots of 3F are fairly heavy on very fine grains still withing the screen size range.  Then you can get a lot of 3F that is fairly coarse.  Being heavy on the larger grain size in that wide range between the coarse and fine screen.
One day I messed up with my .45 caliber flinter and accidentally tripped the lock after sharpening the flint but my right hand was still only inches from the vent when the main charge ignited.  So there I am with my right hand smoking next to the gun wondering what happened.  It was a first for me.  Then I noted all of these little grains of burning powder cooking away in the skin on my right hand.  And then the mind understood the sudden pain. Grabbed the water bottle quick to drown the still slowly burning grains.  That was 40 years ago and I still have the black spots in the skin all around the thumb and first finger. 
 
So what you might blow out the vent loading the flinter is only a small part of what will be blowing out the vent when the powder burns and you have all that pressure in the barrel.  Black powder is noted for producing black tattoos on human skin when it burns on or in the skin.  The charcoal does that.  Also can add a whole new meaning to pain.

[Hunterdude]

Thanks Mad Monk, I was so caught up in the idea of trying to "capture" and measure any powder that might escape the bore during the load process, I very quickly realized it's not good safe practice to close the frizzen on the pan during loading even if the rifle is on "safe" half cock.
    I did just find a thread on vent/touch hole size and some folks said that No 3F would escape a 1/16 hole....others said the number of chunks of powder could be counted on 1 hand....still Others said that 3F "Swiss" powder would self prime a little "more" than GOEX.
   I have also read some folks will screen there 3F thru a fine screen and use the fine stuff they collect for pan priming rather than purchase 4F or Nul B.
   I guess that's part of the fun of the Muzzleloader, your mileage Can and Will vary!

[EC121]

I used to use those small dental brushes to plug the hole when loading. 

[rich pierce]

Under rare conditions (very slick bore, greasy patch, good seal, not too tight) a patched ball can rebound and move up the bore if the vent is plugged because of the air compression when loading. So, I’d be careful with that technique.

[Hunterdude]

I used to use those small dental brushes to plug the hole when loading.

This Is kind of where my head was at when I started this thread, My brother and I dabble in long range bench rest precision shooting with those those yukky kind of rifles we don't speak of here, and we love to get into the fine details of precision shooting.
   I was quite fond of the idea about some southern guns with "feather holes" and the threads I read about that seem like the general consensus was feathers likely where used to plug the Vent while the gun was loaded all day and you where working, but would prevent humidity from enter the main charge if a shooting opportunity present itself. I was looking for other possible use for a feather with Flintlocks and one possibility was if you stuck a slightly undersize feather in the Vent such that the fluffy part was helping to hold it there but loose enough that the Vent could still "breathe" a little to allow for loading just like a dental brush.
    The other possible use for a feather in my mind would be a gentle vent cleaning without risk wallow out the Vent from a forged iron pick.
    The next thing I wanted to try was seating a ball firmly with a feather quill inserted in vent, then remove it with hope the feather would make a tunnel (of powder) to center of charge to expose more surface area to the heat wave for hopefully faster ignition. I am not thinking this is greatly needful with a white lightning touch hole liner, but in my head if the heat wave was allowed to rush down a tunnel (of powder) rather than just hit a little 1/16 circle wall of powder....seems like it might be faster.
     If after you read all this, you ask yourself: is Hunterdude going out of his way to use some feathers in muzzleloading? You would be correct! I have a beautiful American Ruffed Grouse in my freezer and would love to use some of its feathers even if it only was to trim one into a cool shape like strip all the fluff off the quill except maybe 5/8" from the outer tip, this could be installed in the wire staples under my cheak pc. And the natural curve of the quill will hold it in with no rattle. Basicly I like the idea of a natural pick that will not wear the Vent.

[EC121]

Under rare conditions (very slick bore, greasy patch, good seal, not too tight) a patched ball can rebound and move up the bore if the vent is plugged because of the air compression when loading. So, I’d be careful with that technique.

I said I used a small interdental brush not a solid plug.  It vents the air quite easily.

[Daryl]

Under rare conditions (very slick bore, greasy patch, good seal, not too tight) a patched ball can rebound and move up the bore if the vent is plugged because of the air compression when loading. So, I’d be careful with that technique.

Pay attention to Rich's warning, if you plug the vent while loading.   as well, the same thing can and will happen if you happen to double load, or if loading a double ball load. This is where marks on the rod are important if you can't "feel" the difference in height.
Military loading regime was to place the cock at 1/2 bent after firing, prime the pan, then close the frizzen, then shove the paper ctg. into the muzzle, remove the rod, then push the paper ctg. with the ball, onto the powder, then with 3 throws of the rod onto the 'charge' to ensure the ball is on the powder.
If you are concerned about loss of powder out the vent when loading, load one with the cock at 1/2 bent and the frizzen closed on an empty pan.  After loading, open the pan to see how much powder was blown into the pan while loading.

[Dphariss]

I have never worried about powder blowing out with a 1/16 vent. However, it is possible to buy 1/16" brass rod at Ace Hardware, at least where I live, and if beat on with a hammer, cold, to form it slightly square and work harden it then file it to a tapered square it can be put in the vent. Will vent air and should solve both problems. They sell brass tube as well and this can be made into a carrier under the cheekpiece.
The feather thing intrigues me as well but have never tried it. Audubon wrote that Boone used one and used it to pull powder into the pan for prime IIRC. But I suspect his vent was a lot bigger than 1/16".
If you are really worried about velocity variations then wet the patch material with 5 or 7 to one water to WS oil then let the water evaporate. Then carefully wipe every shot. The higher friction load often will shoot better.
BUT. We are not shooting long range. With no care as to powder lost in loading on wind free mornings my 54 Flint Hawken (vent a little over 1/16")will shoot about 5-6" groups at 200 with no vertical stringing with no wiping using Neatsfoot oil patch lube off my pickup tailgate. I was using a shop made tang sight.
And I fully understand velocity variations at long range. I shoot a lot of competition using brass suppositories.

[borderdogs]

I have never had a problem with 3F coming out the vent and I like a vent on the larger side of things (priming and loading with 3F as example). But I agree with Daryl that having a mark on the ramrod is very wise thing to do. I remember my dad saying nearly 60 years ago how to mark the ramrod and I do.
Rob

[Daryl]

We found the vent on a rifle Taylor built many years ago, to be so badly worn, as to lose enough 3F while loading, to produce differences in sound shot to shot.
Replacing the oversized vent "fixed" the problem.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Mad Monk's posting reminded me of the black powder tattoo I gave myself, using a cannon.  In this case, the cannon had a vent in the cascabel - the ball in the breech of the gun, and unknown to me, it was drilled at an angle so that the escaping gases were blown to the rear.  I now know that it was adviseable to stand at the side of the gun when one touched it off with the linstock.
As you can see from this picture, I was extremely lucky to have not lost my sight.  And pain:  the first was the smoking burning powder in my face, the second was a quick rub down with black powder solvent to try to flush the burning powder out, the third was scrubbing my face with soap and water at home with a fingernail brush (all to no avail), and finally, my friend Hatchet Jack untattooed me with 5 mm long needles and saline solution to remove the pigment - that really hurt!
Leave this sort of thing to us professionals.  Do not attempt this at home!!

[Dphariss]

Mad Monk's posting reminded me of the black powder tattoo I gave myself, using a cannon.  In this case, the cannon had a vent in the cascabel - the ball in the breech of the gun, and unknown to me, it was drilled at an angle so that the escaping gases were blown to the rear.  I now know that it was adviseable to stand at the side of the gun when one touched it off with the linstock.
As you can see from this picture, I was extremely lucky to have not lost my sight.  And pain:  the first was the smoking burning powder in my face, the second was a quick rub down with black powder solvent to try to flush the burning powder out, the third was scrubbing my face with soap and water at home with a fingernail brush (all to no avail), and finally, my friend Hatchet Jack untattooed me with 5 mm long needles and saline solution to remove the pigment - that really hurt!
Leave this sort of thing to us professionals.  Do not attempt this at home!!

Glad it was not worse and turned out well. I have avoided being tattooed, so far. A friend had a nipple come out of a Bill Large Hawken breech and carried a black spot on his nose to the grave.

[Mike from OK]

I've got a .45 flint pistol that is "self priming" due to an eroded touch hole... I need to get back to messing around with it and probably drill it out and add a liner.

Mike

[Darkhorse]

I think you are overthinking things. Remember back in the old days the users of these rifles couldn't read, or write, had never seen a TV set or computer, and still got a lot of things right.
When I'm deciding on the touch hole size I take a set of number drills to the range and shoot the rifle. Then if needed I drill out the TH with one (1) number drill size larger. When I get the ignition results I want I stop drilling right there.
My. .40 flintlock has a 1/16th touch hole. As far as I know in the last 15 years I've never had any powder kernels come out the hole.
Just have fun and it never hurts to ask.

[Daryl]

LOL - live and learn.  I touched off the 3" cannon with my bic lighter. I thought with the long flame, I'd be OK. I was not, as it burned the skin off the right side of my left thumb, right down
to the wrist. That stung some - about like a dozen simultaneous wasp stings(maybe 2 dozen) and the pain just went on and on.
Don't do that.