Rifles for children

[tecum-tha]

I am planning on building a modular child sized rifle in flint and percussion.
This will be a prototype rifle for potential "production".
The reason for this prototype is:
1.) We need to get more children into muzzleloading and especially into flintlocks. Imho, modern unmentionable guns are not a winning proposition for our sport. The entire process of these guns goes against traditional guns (scopes, shotgun primers, everything store bought). If the market for flintlock stuff and black powder dies out, the market will either collapse or prices will become even more unaffordable. Niche products are always expensive.

2.) The "Traditions" outfit offers decent quality guns at affordable prices but Made in Spain and imported here. I would be interested in the $ amount, the manufacturer of these rifles really makes, when the retail price in the US is around $320. It seems odd to me, that we have the best quality locks and other components but are unable to produce a decent production rifle here in the US with quality US parts. It seems odd to me, that it costs $170 for a quality percussion replacement lock for a $320 rifle.

This rifle will have the following features:
It will use a small lock in flint/ percussion which needs to be interchangable. It will have a flint breech. 1/2" dia. drum or screw in touch hole liner with a larger diameter the second largest thread diameter available. I strive for a hooked breech plug and tang to easily remove the barrel for cleaning, but this seems ungodly expensive from the tangs I have seen.
Important is 2 lock bolts and a simple, but elegant matching sideplate.
Mr. Hoyt is building me some barrels for this project: A 7/8" Octagon to round .50 cal rifled (24-26" long) and a smooth barrel in 30"with the same profile in .28 gauge =.54 cal.
Reason is, that the .50 cal is a legal deer hunting gun in essentially all US states, .28 gauge is good enough for rabbit and squirrel with shot.
Rifle can be loaded light for target shooting.
These guns will not be full stocked longrifles, but half stock "fowler" style guns. No cheek piece and straight stock. Preferably to be made from a standard size 2x plank.
Straight grain american maple or other suitable hardwood, like cherry.
One barrel tenon. Barrel rib on the rifle with 1 screw on ramrod pipe and 2 soldered on ramrod pipes on the smooth barrel. Simple trigger, screw on good looking but economical trigger guard, simple "wide", hardly curved butt plate.
The idea is that the LOP will be adaptable from 12-13.5 " in 1/2" steps by adding stock pieces in between the slightly curved butt plate piece and the remainder of the buttstock.
Two long screws into a stainless steel insert fastening everything together is my current thought.

This gun may also be a valuable gun for some ladies.
Opinions?




   

[moodyholler]

Watching this with interest. My 11 year old wants to build his own flintlock. moodyholler

[Ron Scott]

I  wouldn't bother with the hook breech and would urge you to design a rifle in a recognizable style. That might carry it's use into the re-enactment group as well introductory shooting.

[Mike Brooks]

I built a boys rifle 30 some odd years ago and went with a route that solved the barrel weight problem. I used a 42" Gostomsky barrel in 20 bore. I used all full sized parts and made the gun with an 11" pull. I made the gun in flint. I loaded it with 40 grains and turned him loose. With in a couple shoots he could easily hit water filled milk jugs at 20-25 yards.  I shot it too and had no problem with the short pull.

[Stoner creek]

I’m going to make a kids gun very soon. Flintlock, 13/16x35” 45 cal Green Mountain barrel. Small Siler lock. I want to make this a set trigger gun too and this will require some trigger shaping. I’m going to use Brooks late Virginia/Sheetz guard to keep things small. I’m debating trigger pull but have no plans of exceeding 13”. This is going to be a plain and simple one as it’s going to be used by a multitude of kids who shoot with our local 4-H shooting sports team. Last year I inspected all of the guns these kids had to shoot all the while seeing my shop in the distance. Decided to take the bull by the horns.

[okieboy]

"It seems odd to me, that we have the best quality locks and other components but are unable to produce a decent production rifle here in the US with quality US parts."

 Are you unfamiliar with the kits that Mr. Kibler is producing? It seems like you are asking for high end quality at commodity production prices. Maybe you could clarify. 

[WKevinD]

I am in the middle of a childs build. A lehigh shaped stock with a 34"  oct to round .45 smoothbore by Bob Hoyt and using a Chambers round faced pistol lock, 12" LOP and 3 /16" RR chanel and pipes.
Made the butt plate from heavy (1/8" ) sheet. Full length red maple stock.
Last time I did one of these I took too long and the kid grew up before it was done

Kevin

[Stoner creek]

"It seems odd to me, that we have the best quality locks and other components but are unable to produce a decent production rifle here in the US with quality US parts."

 Are you unfamiliar with the kits that Mr. Kibler is producing? It seems like you are asking for high end quality at commodity production prices. Maybe you could clarify.

 I don’t think that this is the problem. These 4H folks don’t know what quality is or what quality costs. Put simply, cost is the main driver. From my perspective, I would hate to have to shoot what is available for $400.00 and that is all that they can afford. If I had to shoot the junk that our 4H club had to shoot then I would quit. I would rather loan the kids a good quality custom gun than see them shooting a klatch bang plastic stock piece of (steady maintenance) *****.
 Jim’s stuff is great but he simply can’t be the be-all and end-all solution to everyone’s problem.
 Time is my greatest restriction. If I can get a gun or two made up so that some youngsters can actually enjoy shooting then maybe we can recruit a lifer or two.
 Paying it forward y’all!!

[Mike Brooks]

"It seems odd to me, that we have the best quality locks and other components but are unable to produce a decent production rifle here in the US with quality US parts."

 Are you unfamiliar with the kits that Mr. Kibler is producing? It seems like you are asking for high end quality at commodity production prices. Maybe you could clarify.

 I don’t think that this is the problem. These 4H folks don’t know what quality is or what quality costs. Put simply, cost is the main driver. From my perspective, I would hate to have to shoot what is available for $400.00 and that is all that they can afford. If I had to shoot the junk that our 4H club had to shoot then I would quit. I would rather loan the kids a good quality custom gun than see them shooting a klatch bang plastic stock piece of (steady maintenance) *****.
 Jim’s stuff is great but he simply can’t be the be-all and end-all solution to everyone’s problem.
 Time is my greatest restriction. If I can get a gun or two made up so that some youngsters can actually enjoy shooting then maybe we can recruit a lifer or two.
 Paying it forward y’all!!

A great solution may be a poor boy. Go to Pecatonica and get what ever tickles your fancy with a 13/16" barrel channel. A second stock would do nicely. Build it with no buttplate or side plate, nose cap or entry pipe. Would be far ahead of anything that is already out there. Except maybe one of Chambers little fellas' rifles....never have seen one of those.

[Stoner creek]

 I’ll be down to see Chambers in a couple of weeks. Might check into the Little Fellas kit. I’ve had very good results from all of Jim’s kit offerings.

[Austin]

Put me down for the cost of one of those 4H guns, big man. 4H was good to my kids. Least i can do….

[tecum-tha]

Yes, the main driver is cost. I have no doubt that Kibler has a very nice kit, but this is not the potential market of this gun. Kiblers kits are $1200 kit.
I aim for least expensive with US quality if at all possible.
I already ordered the prototype barrels and they are as lightweight as they can be for the caliber requirement.
I have no problem building a downsized gun, but it becomes an issue if you want to do it at a budget.
I agree with Ron, that this rifle/smoothy will probably follow a specific original style as best possible.
At this moment by analyzing geometry and parts requirements, it will probably look very close to a Mortimer Shotgun/rifle:
https://shop.davide-pedersoli.com/179-medium_default/fucile-mortimer-shotgun-a-percussione.jpg
Quite straight "simple" buttplate, where originally built in flint and percussion, half stock, underrib, can be done with shorter rifled barrel and longer smooth barrel and look correct.
There will be some compromises necessary on the furniture: Those long pointy ends on the comb of the buttplate and on the end of the trigger guard will have to go.
As much as I like a checkered grip, this will of course not be possible at a budget.
Set triggers are not really a cost efficient option (adds $30 in parts alone) and are imho not required if the simple trigger is mounted correctly.
On the hooked breech: A cut of piece from a 1 1/2 x1 1/2x 3/16" regular A36 hot rolled square steel angle can be made into a tang by removing material alone. 60 cents material per piece with shipping included. Question is, how to remove material the quickest and most efficient to get to the end result.
Will probably require machining jigs. Tang will need radius that can be mortised with a 1/4" bit on a gun stock carver. Tang can be cold bent with a jig and press.

Hooked breech can be bought as is without the imho expensive tang castings.

Aside from bought parts, 2-3 hours of labor per rifle?
Parts from different suppliers directly:
+ Barrels with fitted hooked breech and machined dovetails? or cheaper to solder and dovetail sights/underlug at time of assembly?
+ underrib with soldered on ramrod pipes: soldered on using a jig
+ ramrod pipe cap similar than a traditions rifle with ideally hidden fasteners
+ commercial barrel wedge and barrel wedge escutcheons
+ butt plate from bent: 1/8"x1.75" flat steel bar: $2 Material, machining steps time unknown
+ commercial single trigger $10
+ Stock: 40 min on a radar carve? from 2" stock planks in cherry or unfigured maple
+ Locks: L&R Manton locks ($186 flint or $125 percussion + $16 sideplate in steel) or small siler locks (flint: $145 or percussion: $95 with matching side plate:$14.30
+ sight cost and underlug cost undetermined
+ trigger guard will be difficult for now

[tecum-tha]

@Stoner Creek:
The Chambers Little Fellers rifle is $910 including barrel and + shipping.
For being a simple parts kit, this is way out of the league of most parents.
I shouldered a finished one once at Friendship, and it is a very nice rifle, but for me still too long in the LOP (I shoot 12.5") and he was asking 4k.
A friend still has the rugrat rifle I got from Mike Lange for his grandson. He outgrew that. I have to check if this rifle form would work as well.
Drawback was the heavy .45 parallel barrel (Zorne barrel?, good quality) and the less than stellar maslin flintlock.
I coned the barrel and it shoots fine, but the lock is brrrrrr.

@WKevinD: I hear you on them growing up. I see Mr. Hoyt did build you a barrel. He also builds the pair for this prototype.
The Lehigh form does not adapt easily to different body structures of kids imho. And of course, full stock is nice, but takes too much time and labor to deal with if you want to build them cheap and plentiful.

[Austin]

These kids have the want to, the parents probably can’t afford the cost of a custom gun, let alone a plastic one.

[Stoner creek]

@Stoner Creek:
The Chambers Little Fellers rifle is $910 including barrel and + shipping.
For being a simple parts kit, this is way out of the league of most parents.
I shouldered a finished one once at Friendship, and it is a very nice rifle, but for me still too long in the LOP (I shoot 12.5") and he was asking 4k.
A friend still has the rugrat rifle I got from Mike Lange for his grandson. He outgrew that. I have to check if this rifle form would work as well.
Drawback was the heavy .45 parallel barrel (Zorne barrel?, good quality) and the less than stellar maslin flintlock.
I coned the barrel and it shoots fine, but the lock is brrrrrr.

@WKevinD: I hear you on them growing up. I see Mr. Hoyt did build you a barrel. He also builds the pair for this prototype.
The Lehigh form does not adapt easily to different body structures of kids imho. And of course, full stock is nice, but takes too much time and labor to deal with if you want to build them cheap and plentiful.

 My plan is to fund, build, and loan these guns out. If the kids or their parents would like to buy one, there it is. If not, well there’s always next year. I have the inventory and buying power to get across the finish line for less than $800.00 each plus my time and as a labor of love I don’t worry about my time.
 I’m blessed to have had 38 good years of experience at gun making. I’m also blessed with being retired and well funded enough to fund a project like this and have a friend here (Austin) to help fund it as well.  I’ve probably built a dozen kid guns. I know my abilities. I also know that I will never be a gun maker to the degree of many of the good folks on this board.
 I’m going to get cranking on the first one next week.
 These things are gifts to our future!

[tecum-tha]

And all tradition kits are essentially sold out.
That is because they are affordable and mostly shootable.

[Capt powder]

This is the what I've been looking for my daughter for over 6 months to get her into the sport.

[tecum-tha]

How old is your daughter Capt. Powder?

[thecapgunkid]

Tecum....

Be a little cautious about writing off products over price.  You know what you can pay for, of course, but the hike in the Chambers Lil Feller seems to be across the boards.  Ask Barbie what she has in seconds stocks, because she may be able to help you PROVIDED the flaw is something that will not compromise quality and you can correct. She'll tell you that honestly.

Pecatonica has a boys stock, and I have had a a lot of success patching together components with Doug, Jeff and Steve to make some satisfying rifles.

Take, also, into account that your child is gonna grow into whatever you make and then balance off service today against inadequacy tomorrow.  Good luck and be sure to post for the rest of us in your build

[bob in the woods]

Brad Emig at Cabin Creek makes a Boy's Rifle kit with a swamped barrel . It's a thing of beauty.

[tecum-tha]

These guns are not for my children. These guns will be for children interested in traditional muzzleloading.
Not determined if they will be finished guns or kits.
There are plenty of commercial kits out there, but they are not kits for the "masses".
They lack in being modular and they lack in adjustability for the target audience of 7-12 year olds.
I am not writing off products over price (very high quality or period correct produced parts have their price).
But parts sets for .8- 1k are simply unaffordable for most interested parties and/or out of the common persons building ability.
We currently let the imported kits/guns and the unmentionable guns corner that entire market.

I am exploring if a good quality/ "historically correct looking gun" for children can be produced without breaking the bank and with as much of the first listed parameters as possible. Not necessarily with "period" correct methods either.
Mike's Input on the Gostomski smoothy he built back then is also helpful and by having an identical smooth barrel in profile to the rifled one, I am exploring a smooth option,too.

[Daniel Coats]

I personally don't see the advantage of a kids rifle. I built full size rifles for both of my boys and they did just fine shooting from a rest the first couple years. They grow so fast it doesn't seem to make sense to invest in a 3/4 size gun unless you can somehow pass it from kid to kid.

I'll never forget my six year old shooting a full size Kentucky rifle from the bed of my pickup truck for the first time. He sat on the spare tire and used the side of the pickup bed for a rest. I set up a pie plate on a stick at about 25 yards and he drilled it on the first shot. Two shots later he asked me "Dad can I shoot the stick?" I said yes and he cut it in half!

[tecum-tha]

I am not talking about a 3/4 size gun. But a full size rifle is nothing to be handled by kids on their own and most kids want to do more than just shoot a few times from a rest.
That's why there are archery bows for kids, that's where there should be rifles for kids.

[Mike Brooks]

If anyone here owns the kid's gun I mentioned that I built I'd like to get some pictures of it.

[Bob Roller]

"It seems odd to me, that we have the best quality locks and other components but are unable to produce a decent production rifle here in the US with quality US parts."

 Are you unfamiliar with the kits that Mr. Kibler is producing? It seems like you are asking for high end quality at commodity production prices. Maybe you could clarify.

Okieboy,
This hobby has always been that way.I offered what was and is considered an above "average" lock for flint and percussion and was about to quit altogether and thent sent a sample of my locks to a German shop and then could not make enough of them.The lock has always been or
has to be the cheapest thing in the construction of a muzzle loader here in the USA and I think that may have been due to taking up a hobby activity that they couldn't afford at any level and a complete lack of knowledge of shop practices and what it takes to revive long dormant skills such as spring making and other.NO or little appreciation for skilled work sums it up.
Bob Roller