Rifles for children

[tecum-tha]

Bob,
I think this part was misunderstood. Nobody is saying that a craftmans' work is not worth it.
But, if cost was no issue, we would still all be shooting wheellocks. The flintlock mechanism was not as good as a wheellock, but easier to produce and therefore much cheaper to build in quantities than wheellocks.

Now, what is the difference between an average lock and an above average lock?
Let's say the average functional percussion lock is a Spanish or Italian Percussion lock. Let's say the average life span of this lock is: 10000 cycles (no idea, need a tester, any volunteers?) Cost: $75 retail now, a while back probably $40.
So, what is the above average lock: L&R, Davis, Chambers, Zornes? Let's say, average life span of this lock is: 16000 cycles (any testing volunteers) cost: $125 retail now, probably $80 a while back. Forms are more historically correct. Springs stronger.

Best locks: Bob Rollers Hawken Percussion Lock   Life span: 30000 cycles (testing volunteers?) cost: no idea, they were always sold out in Germany when I looked.

The price difference between a percussion lock and flintlock is clear. One spring less, much less material. simpler lockplate geometry, no pan and frizzen. Much less labor to produce.

In flint lock, that above description is imho a little different:

The below average functional lock is a Spanish or Italian Import Flintlock. Let's say the average life span of this lock is: 10000 cycles (no idea, need a tester, any volunteers?) Cost: $125 retail now, a while back probably $70. Issues: Unreliable sparker. Flint eater. Unreliably hardened frizzens. Unsuitable frizzen materials. Unbalanced springs. Questionable geometry. In general, no service if something is wrong and not working as intended. Unfortunately, imho thousands of shooters get turned away from flintlocks using these locks.
In combination with the Spanish/Italian percussion patent breeches, these locks produce unreliable flintlock guns.

So, what is the average flintlock?: L&R, Davis, normal Chambers, Zornes? Let's say, average life span of this lock is: 16000 cycles (any testing volunteers?) cost: $195 retail now, probably $150 a while back. Functions very reliably. I have several locks of those companies with no issues in function. If something is wrong, you will get imho competent service.
Together with a regular flint breeched barrel, they produce reliable functional guns.

Above average flintlocks: Locks from semi- custom/custom builders: Stan Hollenbaugh, Bob Roller, Dale Johnson, Chambers Deluxe, TRS and others. Production CNC locks from Kibler or Laubach.
Price: $225 to $385 now, no idea what the cost were before, probably $60 less. Functions probably super reliable. More reliable than the average flintlock described above? Hard to tell. If something is wrong, you will hopefully get competent service if the lockbuilder is still alive or his locks are in production by someone else you will get at least correct replacement parts or repair service with correct parts. 25000 cycles? No idea? (Any testing volunteers?)
Some are probably the most historical accurate locks, some are just average functional locks with a specific historical look produced in small quantities by hand.

Now, how can the customer distinct between an average and above average flintlock?
 

[Stoner creek]

I have tried my best to understand (after reading this entire thread many times) exactly what the heck that you’re looking for. Component parts are available at a fixed price, labor is depending on the artist. Perhaps you should ask the question without including 11 paragraphs of text.
 I’ll put it to you from inside my shop; I’m building one kids gun from a blank. My cost for parts (good stuff, no import junk) is $600.00. Build time 50 hours. I’m assembling 2 Chambers kits. Cost of the kits $800.00 (seconds stocks). Build time 20 hours each. If I were charging labor the blank build would be around $1000.00 and the kits $400.00-$600.00 each. The math should be easy now. $1200.00-$1600.00.
 The lifespan of any of the locks will be completely irrelevant. I’ve never seen a worn out shot out kids gun and very few worn out adults guns.
 If I’m missing the boat here somehow please point that out briefly!!

[tecum-tha]

@ Stoner Creek: Was in response to Bob Rollers answer to okieboy.
I just wanted to know from Bob what an above average flintlock is and how that can be determined.

No specific relation to the kid prototype gun. I am still waiting on the barrels from Mr. Hoyt,and got soem stockwood so far.
Next little project will be, how quick a hooked tang can be produced from regular hot rolled steel angle similar than what smart dog did for his english fowler.
Tapered hole instead of the standard square.

This thread is not necessarily a question thread. It is a thread that documents this project based upon a list of desirable features which are laid out at the beginning.
I know that there are plenty of component sets available and I know that they are way too labor intensive to be affordable.

The difference is what we consider being junk, not every component on an import is junk.
 

[Stoner creek]

My apologies sir!
It is obvious to me that I am not equipped intellectually to participate in this particular discussion. These are just muzzle loaders. Pretty simple (I thought).
 Carry on my friend!!
 Whew 😰!!

[Austin]

Too many trees in these woods….

[bob in the woods]

Just for the record, and to perhaps save others the trouble of testing, my .54 rifle with a Chambers large Siler lock , has over 25 thousand rounds through it.  Still has the original frizzen, although I expect to replace it in the next couple of years 
The reduced size rifles are not just for children.  I built a "boys" rifle many years ago for my wife who is 5 ft 2 in and 98 lbs   

[Mike Brooks]

Hooked breech? VERY expensive option if I'm  making the gun. There is no market for kids guns. I think I have made 2 out of nearly 400 guns. Like others I find this thread slightly confusing.

[borderdogs]

I always thought a "kids" gun was the gun he has to shoot.
Rob

[tecum-tha]

@ bob in the woods: The repetition of cycle numbers on a lock was pure speculation on my part. I assume most modern locks won't even reach the 15k cycle number in their life?
Doesn't matter. Thanks for the free testing number. I don't know if any of the lock mfg actually cycle test any of their locks.
Maybe they do/did and found out that it is not worth mentioning because the numbers are so high??
In structural construction engineering there are of course specific cycle numbers for dynamic loads given, but steels and loads are too different to compare to a lock spring.
Structural engineering members are designed to sustain 1 million load cycles at specific limiting stress levels, but these are on a macroscopic scale in comparison to a lock spring.
Lock springs probably follow more along mechanical engineering principles which generally allow higher failure rates due to less severe risks when a failure occurs.  If you copy historical spring dimensions with higher grade modern materials, you most likely end up with a much better product than what was top notch back in history. But even in history, safety was obviously a concern, otherwise there would be no barrel proof houses. Of course, that is the case with barrels in most countries still to this day.
 
 

[T*O*F]

This is an actual child's gun that I own.  It's a .40 cal. smoothbore, equivalent to a modern .410 shotgun.  For size reference, the buttplate is about as tall and thick as a pack of cigarettes.

[tecum-tha]

Thanks for the pictures.
Is the barrel removable on this one (hooked breech) or is the barrel pinned in place?

[Dphariss]

I am planning on building a modular child sized rifle in flint and percussion.
This will be a prototype rifle for potential "production".
The reason for this prototype is:
1.) We need to get more children into muzzleloading and especially into flintlocks. Imho, modern unmentionable guns are not a winning proposition for our sport. The entire process of these guns goes against traditional guns (scopes, shotgun primers, everything store bought). If the market for flintlock stuff and black powder dies out, the market will either collapse or prices will become even more unaffordable. Niche products are always expensive.

2.) The "Traditions" outfit offers decent quality guns at affordable prices but Made in Spain and imported here. I would be interested in the $ amount, the manufacturer of these rifles really makes, when the retail price in the US is around $320. It seems odd to me, that we have the best quality locks and other components but are unable to produce a decent production rifle here in the US with quality US parts. It seems odd to me, that it costs $170 for a quality percussion replacement lock for a $320 rifle.

This rifle will have the following features:
It will use a small lock in flint/ percussion which needs to be interchangable. It will have a flint breech. 1/2" dia. drum or screw in touch hole liner with a larger diameter the second largest thread diameter available. I strive for a hooked breech plug and tang to easily remove the barrel for cleaning, but this seems ungodly expensive from the tangs I have seen.
Important is 2 lock bolts and a simple, but elegant matching sideplate.
Mr. Hoyt is building me some barrels for this project: A 7/8" Octagon to round .50 cal rifled (24-26" long) and a smooth barrel in 30"with the same profile in .28 gauge =.54 cal.
Reason is, that the .50 cal is a legal deer hunting gun in essentially all US states, .28 gauge is good enough for rabbit and squirrel with shot.
Rifle can be loaded light for target shooting.
These guns will not be full stocked longrifles, but half stock "fowler" style guns. No cheek piece and straight stock. Preferably to be made from a standard size 2x plank.
Straight grain american maple or other suitable hardwood, like cherry.
One barrel tenon. Barrel rib on the rifle with 1 screw on ramrod pipe and 2 soldered on ramrod pipes on the smooth barrel. Simple trigger, screw on good looking but economical trigger guard, simple "wide", hardly curved butt plate.
The idea is that the LOP will be adaptable from 12-13.5 " in 1/2" steps by adding stock pieces in between the slightly curved butt plate piece and the remainder of the buttstock.
Two long screws into a stainless steel insert fastening everything together is my current thought.

This gun may also be a valuable gun for some ladies.
Opinions?




 

Sounds good. Don’t skimp on the lock.

[Bob Roller]

The makers of muzzle loading guns DID reject a bench crafted lock and I know THAT for a fact.Good barrels and nice wood but a cheap lock was the rule in the late 60's and early 70's.I got calls from any number of people wanting me to make new springs for production locks that had catastrophic spring failures that damaged fine stocks.I never did any repair work on other locks.I usually answered by saying "I have enough to do in avoiding my own mistakes to be bothered with those of others".
Bob Roller

[tecum-tha]

@ Bob: Did it boil down to the mainspring problems on those late 60ies and 70ies locks or where there other major issues?
One major issue I know of was that manufacturers just copied another commercially made lock and by doing so making the copy of the copy even worse.
On this particular lock (Maslin style flintlock, mostly the geometry was not good. I assume the original lock it was copied from was most likely not a high quality piece either when it came to function.

[T*O*F]

Thanks for the pictures.
Is the barrel removable on this one (hooked breech) or is the barrel pinned in place?

It's pinned.

[utseabee]

Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders has a Boys rifle kit that might be worth looking at. You can't beat the quality of the products that the Emigs sell.   Here is the link.   https://cabincreek.net/revspecs/boys-and-ladies-rifle/  They have had some issues with the web site, but this just came up for me when I checked. You can always call them.
Here is their description

Boys And Ladies Rifle
Our Boys and Ladies Rifle is designed in the style that was being made in Lancaster Co., Pa, in the 1770’s by the celebrated gunsmith Jacob Dickert. Dickert’s rifles were widely known for their quality and beauty, as well as their comfortable handling. This rifle has been scaled down to achieve the proper balance and weight for a youth shooter as well as those petite Ladies who desire a high quality authentic rifle. Please be assured that every effort is made to insure that the highest quality parts and craftsmanship go in each and every gun.

Features
Lock– Precision assembled Small Siler Flintlock.
Barrel– Custom made by the Colerain Barrel Co. 30″ long tapered and flared, and available in .40, .45 and .50 caliber. Rifled with early style round bottom rifling
Stock– Select Northern Curly Maple is available in multiple grades, as well as Walnut, Cherry and Ash.
Options– A large variety of options are available to customize your rifle to your individual requirements.
Custom Model– Through our custom rifle shop we are able to offer a wide variety of decorative upgrades, including patch boxes, inlay work, relief carving and hand engraving.  All of our work is performed in a manner authentic to the period.
 

Basic Dimensions
Overall Length – 44″   Weight in .45 – 5 lbs.
Width of Butt – 1 5/8″   Cast Off – 1/4″
Height of Butt – 4 3/16″   Trigger Pull Lengths
Boys – 11 1/4″

Ladies – 12 1/2″

[Bob Roller]

Even today there are new locks with poorly fit tumbler thru plate and tumbler thru the bridle and a poor fit with the screw the sear pivots on.
The Maslin* flintlock as offered by Hamm was an abomination and apparently catered to a price rather than any level of satisfaction for the buyer. Because he.used a low end relic for mould masters is no way to make anything IMHO.Russ Hamm told be at a shoot in 1964 that I was an idiot for taking the time I did in making locks and my reply was that Dan Kindig showed me a boot box full of his "masterpieces"that failed before they were installed on a gun.His successor did no better.The locks made in the USA now are much better and the work of Chambers,Kibler,and others are proof.If L&R would take more time with the fitting of their internal parts.Their external parts are very good and I chose 3 different styles to use with custom mechanisms and I told them I appreciated their help  by selling them to me.
Same goes for the Chambers Late Ketland.Shortly after I joined this forum I planned to make 10 Twigg locks using the R.E.Davis externals and ended that run with 14 and the last one went to South Africa.
* I HAVE heard favorable reports by owners of the Russ Hamm Maslin lock but I am thinking they have been "tuned" years ago.
I also think a Maslin size lock minus the cast in engraving would be good for a smaller scale rifle or a target pistol.Remember,the REAL lock is INSIDE the plate and not a good looking set of external,viewable parts.Close fits and limber,active springs all polished.

Bob Roller 

[tecum-tha]

Bob,
thank you for the clarification. On that particular rifle with this maslin lock I was wondering if I was not dealing with a Spanish lock, but it was a Russ Hamlin one.
I heard the Spanish copied from a Russ Hamlin lock as well. Must be true. Copy of a lousy copy won't get better.
I am also assuming that most lock companies improve their products over time if there are problems or would go out of business.
For example the improved cock for the RE Davis Jaeger lock.
I would be interested in your observations of the latest production locks from L&R, Chambers, Davis, Zorne.
As most of these are at very similar price points.
When it comes to US production locks which are available in flint and percussion with the same lock plate for interchangability, which one would you consider to be the best one?
Small Siler Flint/Percussion, Large Siler Flint/Percussion or Golden Age Flint/Percussion by Chambers
or Late English Flint/Percussion by Davis
or M&G Classic Flint/Percussion (Zorne through Davis)
or Durrs Egg Flint or Percussion, Manton Flint or Percussion or Classic Flint or Percussion by L&R.

   

 

[borderdogs]

I was interested in the "kids" gun topic, recently a fellow posted pictures and details about two rifles he was building for his kids great post! There is a video of Mike Miller describing a small rifle he build for his daughter which is also fun to watch. Sorry tecum-tha I have read this thread several times and it is hard to follow and I am bowing out.
Rob

[tecum-tha]

Currently waiting for the ordered domestic barrels.
Acquired some stock wood. Starting on CAD rifle patterns.

This thread is not about building a highly customized kid size rifle, but for now about what options are available in parts and methods to control the price in building a quality rifle for kids. When decisions about parts are made, then it becomes about building.

Example: Can a current production gun be made into a more historically correct looking gun by using a different stock? Can the furniture be adapted to look more accurate without changing the optimized for MFG internal system? Example: Entrypipe on a Sharon Hawken. Trigger on a Traditions Deerhunter

Is it easily possible to change from percussion to flint by using indexed threads into the barrel? Tightened down with a specific torque? What is the difference in cost to do indexed vs non-indexed? Or is a brass crush washer sufficient? What thickness washer is required to locate the nipple correctly? Will that negatively affect the hammer to nipple sideways position.
How much is tolerable not to impede reliability depending on lock used? (Hammer surface size differences?)

I got several valuable opinions: Mr. Roller explained what a quality lock is in his opinion. His locks were highly sought after in Germany, but never available when I was in the market for one. I would like an opinion of the quality grading of current production locks from him.

Mr. Brooks stated that a hooked breech is an expensive option in his opinion and there is no market for kids rifles.
Agree with: No market in the custom muzzleloader rifle market, don't agree with production.

 

 
 

 

[Daryl]

Here's my little girl shooting her Mom's rifle, a shortened Seneca.





whats my screen reso

[Mike Brooks]

Currently waiting for the ordered domestic barrels.
Acquired some stock wood. Starting on CAD rifle patterns.

This thread is not about building a highly customized kid size rifle, but for now about what options are available in parts and methods to control the price in building a quality rifle for kids. When decisions about parts are made, then it becomes about building.

Example: Can a current production gun be made into a more historically correct looking gun by using a different stock? Can the furniture be adapted to look more accurate without changing the optimized for MFG internal system? Example: Entrypipe on a Sharon Hawken. Trigger on a Traditions Deerhunter

Is it easily possible to change from percussion to flint by using indexed threads into the barrel? Tightened down with a specific torque? What is the difference in cost to do indexed vs non-indexed? Or is a brass crush washer sufficient? What thickness washer is required to locate the nipple correctly? Will that negatively affect the hammer to nipple sideways position.
How much is tolerable not to impede reliability depending on lock used? (Hammer surface size differences?)

I got several valuable opinions: Mr. Roller explained what a quality lock is in his opinion. His locks were highly sought after in Germany, but never available when I was in the market for one. I would like an opinion of the quality grading of current production locks from him.

Mr. Brooks stated that a hooked breech is an expensive option in his opinion and there is no market for kids rifles.
Agree with: No market in the custom muzzleloader rifle market, don't agree with production.

 

 
 

 

At this point I must ask, have you ever built a gun before?

[snrub47]

Here are some photos of a kids gun I built for my grandsons to shoot. It has a 12.5 inch pull and is very lite, about 5.5-6 lbs. Oct to round barrel from MBS, smaii Siler and L&R triggers. As you can see I made a lot of mistakes but it shoots and function great and serves the purpose. Probably $600 in parts.........

[tecum-tha]

@snrub47:
Thank you. That rifle has a lot of the elements mentioned in my first post.
I assume it is a rifled barrel. What is the caliber and what length is that barrel?
Is this a small or regular siler lock? (If it is a Siler).
 

[snrub47]

   tecum-tha,  Yes it is a small siler lock, rifled 40 caliber barrel 32 inches long.