Rifles for children

[Birddog6]

Hooked breech? VERY expensive option if I'm  making the gun. There is no market for kids guns. I think I have made 2 out of nearly 400 guns. Like others I find this thread slightly confusing.

Hooked breech, definitely not.  You have cost in parts & labor & it is not necessary.  For me, a hooked breech is just an easy way to change barrels to a dif caliber. Only hooked breech rifle I own is the first rifle I built back in 1978.  I call it "Ol Ugly" & it owns up to the name. 

I have not built nearly as many rifles a Mike, but I have built 5 Kids or Ladies rifles.  And it cost me as much to build it as it does a regular rifle and takes as much time.  Because it is smaller does not make the parts cost smaller.  For some reason people think because it is 3/4 size, it should cost 1/2 as much. Price usually kills a sale on a Kids rifle.    So out of 149 rifles only 5 were 3/4 size.

Somewhere on this thread I got lost in the woods as well..

[tecum-tha]

The ability to change barrels is for now a desired feature of the gun.
That's why there is a rifled and a smooth barrel in the works with identical rear profile, but different length.
It is understood that it adds parts and labor, but every cheap import production gun has this feature.
These guns do not come from China or from India, but from Spain and Italy where wages are not much lower than in the rural US or Midwest.

[Mike Brooks]

Here's a kid's gun I didi. Must have been years ago because I don't remember making it.
https://app.photobucket.com/u/Gunmaker/a/94e543a8-2bf4-472b-88b3-28b23bf83d6f?mode=slideshow

[tecum-tha]

Mike,
Octagon to round barrel according to the picture? Resolution is a little low.
Do you remember barrel length? About 30"?
Sheet brass buttplate?
Is that a regular size lock or a small lock, like a small siler?


Thanks

[Mike Brooks]

Mike,
Octagon to round barrel according to the picture? Resolution is a little low.
Do you remember barrel length? About 30"?
Sheet brass buttplate?
Is that a regular size lock or a small lock, like a small siler?


Thanks

I don't  recall any details   I don't even remember making it

[Stoner creek]

Mike,
Octagon to round barrel according to the picture? Resolution is a little low.
Do you remember barrel length? About 30"?
Sheet brass buttplate?
Is that a regular size lock or a small lock, like a small siler?


Thanks

I don't  recall any details   I don't even remember making it

How many cycles with the lock you used? An estimate will suffice. 15000 cycles, 20 million cycles?? This is important stuff so let us know!!
 You are aware that most commercial lock makers will probably eat the cost of rebuilding a totally worn out lock for free but we really need to know how many cycles.
 Another thing, what type off lubricant will achieve the maximum number of cycles? Do you have comparative data between no lubricant versus WD-40 versus motor oil versus perhaps white lithium grease or maybe even molybdenum? It’s all about cycles.

[Austin]

Mike, ive had those blackouts myself….. dont tell anyone!!!

[tecum-tha]

@Stoner Creek:
? Ready for the WE?
@ Mike:
Thanks for the picture. No problem.
Some builders keep records, others don't.

[Stoner creek]

@Stoner Creek:
? Ready for the WE?
@ Mike:
Thanks for the picture. No problem.
Some builders keep records, others don't.

WE I assume is weekend. Yes indeed. Got a busy weekend planned. I’m going to complete mock-up and stocking of a children’s gun that I started 2 weeks ago AND I have students coming over each day for individual instruction. Neither of the 2 have any previous experience. @@@@@

[tecum-tha]

@Stoner Creek:
Sounds like a fun weekend. Enjoy!

[Craig Wilcox]

Stoner, you forgot to add Bear grease and deer lard for lubricants.  Have to be inclusive, ya know.

[Hungry Horse]

 Well speaking from experience, building a kids gun from quality parts is a waste of time, and parts. I bought a cut down T/C Hawken in .45 for my nephews to shoot. They loved it, as did a couple on the other side of the family. Then my wife and I had a boy of our own. He shot it for a couple of years. But, I had drifted into shooting a trade gun, so of course he wanted a trade gun too. I built him one from a .410 shotgun barrel, a walnut stock, and a pistol sized flintlock. It shot fine but he outgrew it in no time.
 The time, and money involved hardly justifies the short amount of time they use them. It’s much easier to cut down a used kit gun, than build a gun from scratch. Believe me it won’t fit them long.

Hungry Horse

[tecum-tha]

So you cut down a now $450 to $500 gun.
Percussion I assume.
You built your son a tradegun. How many parents are able to do this from scratch?
How many people can build an imported kit?
Most. Why does it need to be an imported kit?
Because it is reasonably priced.
Can a domestic kit be created that can do more, is more historical correct looking and uses quality key components?
Can that be done using the english gun buidling methods of the 18th and 19th century, when english import guns were cheaper and probably better quality than US guns?
Wages are probably in the same ballpark.

[Bob Roller]

Rifles for children will never be worn out but maybe damaged by improper cleaning or no cleaning at all.
Any lock or trigger currently made today if it's a suitable size will work fine.It has been a very long time since
I have heard of a mainspring breaking in any lock by current makers.I made up a small scale Creedmoor style
rifle in 2008 and it had a 13/16 x 30" 40 caliber GM barrel,no rib or rod but good sights and a scaled down Stanton style lock
and single trigger.Stock was walnut and had too much drop. I sold it to Dixie Gun Works after testing it.
A second one was under way when my shop was broken into and robbed of the gun,some powder and small tools.
I know who did it but can't prove it.At this point in time I am winding down and haven't been in the shop at all
this year.Cold weather and the "White Horror"showed up maybe if and when it warms up I will start working again.
Bob Roller   

[Hungry Horse]

Just to straighten things out a bit. The TC Hawken was about a $150.00 gun at the time. It was a flinter converted to percussion. Because even back then TC made a miserable flint lock. The small trade gun was built directly off of the plans shown in one of the paper backed trade gun books. It also was the first time I had run a metal lathe, when I cut down the barrel, and turned the wedding rings. It’s not rocket science. I just wish I had built a full sized gun.

Hungry Horse

[Birddog6]

The key to a Youth Rifle is weight.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen rifle built for a 11-12 yr old kid & the rifle weigh 7-8# and the dad & kid get frustrated cause the kid cant hold it still.  It is Too Dang Heavy.  It needs to be in the 5# range & definitely not over 5 1/2#.  Now there are exceptions of kids being really big at 11-12 yrs old, but allot of the times the dads think THEIR boy can handle that 7-8# rifle just because it is his kid.

If memory serves me OK (and it usually don't  ) this 3/4 size Isaac Haines I built my oldest grandson weighs 5.1# & has a 12" LOP. Swamped A40 barrel and 36" long.  Small Chambers Siler flintlock. A cut down small Bivins buttplate & a cut off small Bivins triggerguard. Std. 5/16 Lancaster RR & Entrypipe pipes. Side plate cut down 3/4 size to mate to the small Siler lock.  Hand made muzzle cap.  He is average size compared to his classmates & he handled the rifle wonderfully. It is patterned off my Isaac Haines that I deer hunt with most of the time.

[tecum-tha]

Mr. Lisle,
Very fancy rifle.
I recognize the weight issue. that's why I opted for a .50 in a 7/8" barrel, octagon to round and 24-26" long, smoothbore max. 30" long in addition to the hunting/supplies argument
Another reason I will opt for a halfstock is weight and "labor saving".
I also want the weight mostly in the buttstock, close to the shoulder (easy to hold) and absorbing recoil.
I will see how light these barrels come out. Should be another 2-3 weeks or so until they show up.

[Stoner creek]

Mr. Lisle,
Very fancy rifle.
I recognize the weight issue. that's why I opted for a .50 in a 7/8" barrel, octagon to round and 24-26" long, smoothbore max. 30" long in addition to the hunting/supplies argument
Another reason I will opt for a halfstock is weight and "labor saving".
I also want the weight mostly in the buttstock, close to the shoulder (easy to hold) and absorbing recoil.
I will see how light these barrels come out. Should be another 2-3 weeks or so until they show up.

I’m curious about two things here.
 1: How do you figure labor savings with a half stock? Purchase and install on an under rib and half stock pipes will almost certainly be more money and time.
 2: What is the budget for each gun?

 I’m currently in the final stages of a kids gun. Most of the parts were purchased over a number of years. I got big discounts on some of the parts because I bought a large number of items at the same time. Example; Small Siler flintlock @ 100.00 (cannot be bought at that price today). I’ve calculated my cost at just under $550.00 just for the parts. I’m 2 1/2 weeks into the project and another week to finish.
 I will go back to a question that I raised on a previous post. What’s your time worth? The project that I’m doing now would cost the customer $1000.00 for my time and that’s a bargain!
 Good luck for sure!

[T*O*F]

This is another little gun I built from "parts on hand"  for a friend.  It can't weigh over 4lbs and all the weight is in the butt, instead of hanging over the barrel.  You can shoot it one-handed with no problem.

[Dennis Glazener]

I’m curious about two things here.
 1: How do you figure labor savings with a half stock? Purchase and install on an under rib and half stock pipes will almost certainly be more money and time.

I am with Stoner on this one, I built one half-stock Hawken Squirrel rifle and don't care if I ever build another half-stock, I certainly did not save any labor over the full stocks I have built.
Dennis

[tecum-tha]

Noted, about half stock vs full stock,.
My line of thought:
Halfstock pre-carves are a good amount cheaper than full stocks.
The entrypipe can be done in a similar fashion than in a Sharon Hawken or like in an Ardesa import ( hidden fasteners)
Under rib and ramrod pipe should be able to be installed quick with a jig or a modern hidden screw system may be used.
Rear sights dovetailed and front sight soldered.

[Stoner creek]

So with a very small amount of research I saw Pecatonica component parts for your half stock priced at $537.50 plus the cost of the stock (I picked out the first percussion half stock that I could find).  A modest grade (cm2) stock is priced at $95.00 for the half stock. Total cost in excess of $630.00. This is basically what you can expect to pay (+- $200.00) for an already made gun on today’s market. Cap lock guns are cheap to buy. After you have paid this amount you get the privilege of trying to get parts to fit into someone else’s pre-carved stock. Getting it right requires a true expert and sometimes that ain’t enough.
 My friend, I hate to be Mr. Gloom and Doom but I fear that you are fixing to get a real education.
 My advice, listen to the old dogs who have been doing this for decades………

[Mike Brooks]

So with a very small amount of research I saw Pecatonica component parts for your half stock priced at $537.50 plus the cost of the stock (I picked out the first percussion half stock that I could find).  A modest grade (cm2) stock is priced at $95.00 for the half stock. Total cost in excess of $630.00. This is basically what you can expect to pay (+- $200.00) for an already made gun on today’s market. Cap lock guns are cheap to buy. After you have paid this amount you get the privilege of trying to get parts to fit into someone else’s pre-carved stock. Getting it right requires a true expert and sometimes that ain’t enough.
 My friend, I hate to be Mr. Gloom and Doom but I fear that you are fixing to get a real education.
 My advice, listen to the old dogs who have been doing this for decades………

I see nothing wrong with a real education.

[tecum-tha]

Will it be harder and more labor intensive to install one underlug, one underrib with one pipe on the underside of the barrel or is it more labor intensive to deal with a thin forestock with a thin web, two underlugs and pin the pipe in place in the stock?
Remains to be seen.
 

[Stoner creek]

Will it be harder and more labor intensive to install one underlug, one underrib with one pipe on the underside of the barrel or is it more labor intensive to deal with a thin forestock with a thin web, two underlugs and pin the pipe in place in the stock?
Remains to be seen.

Half stock is much more work. I’ve done both.
That thin web isn’t necessarily an issue. This one I’m working on now has a 5/16” web. That would normally be an issue but with experience that is now a non-issue. I would have to point that out before most folks would notice.