Practice pistol tang carving no.2

[Rolf]

Finished my second attempt at a kentucky pistol tang.  I still have a way to go, before I dare carve a pistol. Critiques, comments and suggestions welcome.

I've tried to follow the advice given on my last post. I've reduced the height of the carving to 0.04". I length-ed the "vines " with 1/4" and tried to taper them towards the base and use more hollows. To save time , I carved it on a flat surface. When I  know how it's supposed to be , I'll follow Acer's suggestions and do some practice rounds on a curved surface.

Lengthening the carving made the space in closed by the vines look to big and empty. I tried to fill it up with a diamond design. This made it look to "heavy".
I made the left edge of the upper leaf hollow. I think this was a mistake and it should have been rounded.

All in all, I feel the carving is to stiff and clunky. It might help to start the carving further down on the tang and try to open up the base more. This would reduce the  area in closed by the wines and hopfully make it less stiff. Would it help to make the space in closed by the vines more oval?


Best regards
Rolfkt

[Randy Hedden]

Rolf,

You can practice all you want on a flat board, but it is never going to look right until you try it on a rounded practice board or a stock.  Your problem, as I see it is that you are digging down into the wood directly behind the tang and that isn't what you want to do, but it is the only way you can do it on a flat board.  If you were working on a rounded piece of wood you would just taper the wood down behind the tang in two directions, toward the butt and sideways on both sides to the vines.  You would taper from the beginning wood height behind the tang down to the vine carving.  In this area behind the tang you would taper from the surface of the wood directly behind the tang to about .030 inch deep where this section of wood between the vines actually meet the vines.  I will try and get a picture of a pistol tang carving and send it to you.  Save yourself a lot of trouble and anxiety and throw the flat practice wood away and try carving on a rounded piece.

Randy Hedden

[Acer Saccharum]

Rofkt, I am going to post some tang carvings to try to express the height and modeling. It's awful hard to do without original works to look at.

This is higher relief than I'd want for a pistol, but it gives some idea of how I treated the tang transition into the stock. The Tang is almost on an elevated plane, and the wood slopes away from the tang on the sides and end. The carving is used to help make that transition.


Another tang carving, picture in the backdrop is the Steinscloss book. Note the carving is used to cover the transition from tang to curved wrist. This carving is way too high for any American gun. The illusion I tried to get was that the tang carving is applied to the rounded wrist underneath.


A hopefully helpful sketch. SOme of the writing wasn't dark enough. It shows the theory of the wrist slipping under the lock panels and tang carving. I am trying to convey that the form underlying all the panels and transition areas is THE most important design element of the gun. So you must observe your transition areas, and then decide how you will carve or decorate these areas. The carving is used to embellish the transitions, carving does not exist just to please.

The curve of the tang and the curve of the wrist happen to be different on the gun above, and in the sketch below. The sloped planes are the transitional zones. But this does not happen with every gun, but should you end up with a situation like this, this is one way to treat it.



Tom

[Dave B]

Rolfkt,
You have improved it  from your first. Your observations are correct. It is too clunky.  The tapering of the volutes is better than previously. Yes you shouldn't have hollowed out the leaf on that one side but hey that's why you practice. I liked the ramping that was done on the transition from the end of the tang on the earlier attempt. The recoil of the pistol barrel in the stock will most likely break off that little raised trim section at the end of the finial breach section on this piece. You were talking about a more oval shape to the layout next time, is a great Idea. The other thing to consider is how you bring the volutes around. Both of these on this carving have kinks in them which adds to the chunkiness of the  element. I watched a good carver do a preliminary design in clay first before taking the chisel to the wood. Half my biggest problem when I started carving was to figure out what section needed to go or stay. Seeing the original carving will always be your best bet.

[Randy Hedden]

Rolf,

This is a tang carving on a pistol I made several years ago.  I believe it is closer to the design you are attempting than the posted pictures by Acer.  These pictures show the tapering of the surface behind the tang that I was trying to explain in my post above.

Randy Hedden

[JTR]

Rolf, I agree that your 2nd attempt is better than the first, so you're getting there.
However, as Dave B pointed out, you need to draw the scrolls without kinks, dog legs or straight parts. I know it's difficult to draw a perfect scroll, but for the carving to look good, it needs to be pretty close.

I don't know how you are laying out your design, but to start, I'd suggest drawing it as a single line for each side of your design (above the tang and below the tang in your picture), as it's easier for the eye to pick out straight parts of a single line scroll, or areas with a kink or dog leg.

After you've perfected the single line drawing, use it for the center line of your carving design, and add whatever width you need  for the carved elements to either side of the single line.

If you have one of those clear plastic French curve templets, it might help you with smooth flowing lines.

Keep at it!

John

[Rolf]

Thank you all for your comments and advice. It's a big help. The only muzzle loaders I've seen here in Norway are either old plane jane military guns or cheap Spanish replicas with beech stocks and no carvings. Pictures are a big help.

I've tried to folllow the advice given and redrawn the tang carving. I've settled on two patterns I like, but they both have problems I'd welcome advice on. The areas are marked with arrows. I'll do the next practice carving on a rounded block.

Pattern no.1: I like this one best, but I'm worried about the two spots where the vines cross each other. Will this cause problem when the carving is only 0.04" high?

Pattern no.2: This one looks easier to do. there are no vines crossing. But I'm not happy with the leaf on the top of the design. It does not look right. Any suggestions?

Best regards
Rolfkt

[Dave B]

Rolfkt,
I like your #1 drawing but with out the second frond end so long, Bring it back into a stub leaf end, broader across then lengthen out the finial to carry the motion of the whole effect. you want to keep the movement going toward the butt or thumb piece. Taking your #1 and adding the shortened effect helps some but the oval portion is too long for the finial section to be effective. #2 shows a poor rendition of a Bonawits/Reedy tang carving. Note the proportion of the cross hatched portion to the terminal elements.
#3 Taking that relation ship to your carving and switching the volute to the same side while elongating its terminal helps to balance it out over all with the sun burst section.



Here is a good example of this effect with one of flintriflesmiths pistols I rat holed this pic for my library. Note how the secondary volute makes no stops on its way through and under the first volute making its first curl as a balancing point before terminating into a pin wheel Edlevise flower. All of the elements are either drawing you back into the  carving or moving you on down to the very end of the tip of the elongated  flower peddle  pointing down the wrist.

[louieparker]

Rolf;   All three are an improvement . I like # 3 best....LP

[Dave B]

Here is an interesting photo from the library of a tang carving from a Berks Co. Rifle It shows quite well the contours of the areas around the tang and transition to the barrel very well.