January Postal Match

[OldMtnMan]

Nice shooting. I can barely remember when my eyesight was good enough to shoot like that. I'd need a scope to do it now.

[Daryl]

Well, finally some decent weather - nice - warm +2 C (35.6F) shot a few targets, went even worse quickly. LOL
Pair of 45's/50 with my .36 spit for lube.
oops:
Need a heavier rifle - if we get out again, it will be with the .69(my target rifle)

[alacran]

Good to see you got to play Daryl.  A pair of 45's is good, after all it seems you've been shut in for a while.
Hopefully I'll get to go out and shoot the target this week. Of course, it won't count.
I have a javelina hunt coming up in Feb. Plan on using my smoothbore, have to make some real meat other than tree rats with it.

[Maven]

Nice work, Daryl!  Glad the weather has moderated for you because it sure isn't here.  Warm, even hot weather sounds very appealing right now.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

As Daryl said, the weather went from -30 to + 3 with nice sunshine and no wind yesterday.  We haven't been able to get out since Novemeber, so this was a very pleasant afternoon.
My first target was pretty shaky but I settled down for my next two or three and shot these.  They all score 48 but the best one is a 48 2X.  The eight at 3 o'clock was my first shot.  For reasons I don't grasp, I always throw one shot in the toilet.  I suspect it has to do with lack of practice and age.

Anyway, here's my targets.  I used my Chambers' Mark Silver Virginia rifle which I rebarrelled last summer from a .50 cal to a .60 cal. and I'm loving it.

[Maven]

Excellent targets, Taylor!

[MuskratMike]

Can not believe the weather changes here in Oregon. 2-3 weeks ago I was shoveling snow (a not so common occurrence here in the valley), then warmer weather and too much rain with rivers flooding (thankfully not near me) and now today zero wind, slight overcast and 57 degrees. Shot a couple of targets, didn't do bad for a shaky old guy with bad eyes. Going back out again tomorrow with my .32 caliber Gillespie "tribute" rifle and see what she can do. If you can't read the targets I shot them with my Kibler .40 caliber SMR .395 round ball .018 ticking patch lubed with a 50/50 mixture of T.O.T.W. mink oil and pure Neatsfoot oil, 60 grains of GOEX 3F.

[Daryl]

Looking pretty good, Mike. I would score that bottom target 48 1X.

[MuskratMike]

Didn't want to look greedy, I'll bow to the judge on that one but I kind of agree.

[Dphariss]

Just joking around. I don't expect rules to be changed. I'll always shoot offhand if it fits into the rules.

I need a few months to get all I need to shoot.

Remember that historically matches were shot with a rest. A chunk or something like we used in the Cody turkey matches some years back.
Offhand was considered a poor test of the rifle. So when you read of then shooting at marks on a piece of wood between someone's knees it was not from standing.

[Dphariss]

As Daryl said, the weather went from -30 to + 3 with nice sunshine and no wind yesterday.  We haven't been able to get out since Novemeber, so this was a very pleasant afternoon.
My first target was pretty shaky but I settled down for my next two or three and shot these.  They all score 48 but the best one is a 48 2X.  The eight at 3 o'clock was my first shot.  For reasons I don't grasp, I always throw one shot in the toilet.  I suspect it has to do with lack of practice and age.

Anyway, here's my targets.  I used my Chambers' Mark Silver Virginia rifle which I rebarrelled last summer from a .50 cal to a .60 cal. and I'm loving it.

Nice.
I have too much wind here for offhand and I have some virus thats keeping me in the house. Current weather from my phone that knows everything cause its smart.

[Dphariss]

Dang it, hit the wrong key before posting the weather

[Dphariss]

Took this photo while headed to the shop the other day. The warm Chinook wind was rolling snow balls.

Dan

[alacran]

Great shooting Taylor! You too Muskrat! You both shot 48s. Center of ball only has to touch edge of line. Line is not a straight line. Taylor has the x count.
Dan, a lot of matches were shot offhand, and there are period pictures that show that.
Not to mention that Shuetzen matches have been shot from a standing position for hundreds of years.
I believe that the test of the shooter, has been more important than the test of the rifle, whether shooting standing or from a rest. 

[Dphariss]

Great shooting Taylor! You too Muskrat! You both shot 48s. Center of ball only has to touch edge of line. Line is not a straight line. Taylor has the x count.
Dan, a lot of matches were shot offhand, and there are period pictures that show that.
Not to mention that Shuetzen matches have been shot from a standing position for hundreds of years.
I believe that the test of the shooter, has been more important than the test of the rifle, whether shooting standing or from a rest.

Well the only actual written description is in “The Frontier Rifleman” by La Crosse. Its a quote from “Notes on the Settlements and Indian Wars of the Western Parts of Virgina and Pennsylvania 1763 to 1783.”  Reverend Joseph Doddridge.
However. The Reverend died in 1826 from what I can find and the book was published in 1876 by his daughter.
I would also point out that beef shoots and such were still being shot from a rest in Kentucky and Tennessee right up to current day near as I can tell. I do think that the advent of the crescent butt may show that offhand shooting was more  common, or not. It a quick search of the WWW I could not find any Miller Paintings of the West showing rifle matches. But will keep looking.



I have a friend who has an early Don King rifle, from about 1958 IIRC, its a bench copy of an original Don had access too.
Its not a very comfortable rifle in offhand and my friend who now owns the rifle could not fathom why it was stocked this way. Then he tried it from a plank rest and found it is ideal for shooting with a rest.
The detail from the painting I posted is called “Turkey Shoot at Sarasota Springs” and was done in 1876 but I believe the match depicted is from earlier though the man with the cigar seems to have a tube or telescopic sight on his rifle.

[Dphariss]

Great shooting Taylor! You too Muskrat! You both shot 48s. Center of ball only has to touch edge of line. Line is not a straight line. Taylor has the x count.
Dan, a lot of matches were shot offhand, and there are period pictures that show that.
Not to mention that Shuetzen matches have been shot from a standing position for hundreds of years.
I believe that the test of the shooter, has been more important than the test of the rifle, whether shooting standing or from a rest.

I understand Schuetzen shooting have done some of it. But thats not the subject here. The dedicated Schuetzen rifle is far different than what the average American would have been using. Schuetzen is a very specialized sport and there was a LOT of money in the matches. Here is a shooters box and the attendant gear needed to be competitive. Nots that some of it. The starter, for example, is pretty delicate and easily damaged. Now there are some what I would call “general purpose” rifles in the volume  pictured and could be used in the field for hunting I suppose if they shot OK with a RB. The Schuetzen rifle is really no more relevant to a site dedicated to the longrifle than a 60 pound Horace Warner  slug gun. Both are, by and large, a specialized rifle used for a specific purpose. The average man with a hunting rifle could not compete. No matter how good a shot he was.







Just using a picket bullet is a PITA for someone who only hunts and shoots 60 yard turkey or beef shoots. Yes I have made up and shot a picket bullet with and without a guide starter, bullets swaged from lead wire. I built an under hammer bullet gun back in the late 1980s IIRC and shot it out as far as 1000-1200 yards.  There is not much in the ML world that i have not and least dabbled in.  I just went through a long list of Alfred Jacob Miller art. Not one of people shooting rifles. There are three of people shooting pistols. One a native shooting in the air and another of a man horseback shooing a cougar with a pistol and one of Stewart shooting at elk, horse back in a stream with a pistol. Both he and Catlin show “indians” testing their bows. No rifle shooting that would be pertinent to this discussion.
There are three surviving S Hawken rifles with pistol grip stocks and provisions for a Schuetzen tang sight, at least  one such sight survives  But the Hawkens were in St Louis and there were people making dedicated Schuetzen rifles there by the 1850s.  However, the do not appear to be picket rifles since there is no provision for a starter unless the muzzle is recessed.

[alacran]

The rifles that were shot at Shuetzen Fests in the 16th century were nothing like those you show above. That is what evolved in the 19th century. I agree that a lot of competitions in North America were shot using rests. Just like today both types of matches were popular.
During the US Civil War, to become one of Berdan's Sharpshooters, qualification was ability to shoot standing. That is not an ability that is acquired by shooting off a rest.

[Dphariss]

The rifles that were shot at Shuetzen Fests in the 16th century were nothing like those you show above. That is what evolved in the 19th century. I agree that a lot of competitions in North America were shot using rests. Just like today both types of matches were popular.
During the US Civil War, to become one of Berdan's Sharpshooters, qualification was ability to shoot standing. That is not an ability that is acquired by shooting off a rest.

Should have been more careful with my wording. Of course there were surely SOME offhand shooting. But the only reference I can find from the TIME in the late 18th and early 19th says it was  from a rest. I pay attention and look for things like this. By time it was popular in the US it was fired at 200 yards. Thus the  picket bullets, gg and pp bullets and various starters.  Most American rifle matches were shot at 11-12 rods, 60 odd yards. Good distance for a round ball rifle. The hard core bench shooter shot at 20 rods and beyond. According to Hamilton and Rowe the style of shooting known as “Schuetzen” did not arrive here until well into the 19th C . The first schuetzen verein in the US was not established until 1846 in Philadelphia. Most of the German immigrants were from cosmopolitan areas and they gravitated to the cities. It spread pretty rapidly in the late 1840s  into the 1850s and a great many big names in late 19th, early 20c  started out shooting schuetzen.  It was centered around population centers since that is where the Germans ended up for the most part and was was a spectator sport. The anti-German sentiment  after we entered WW-I killed Schuetzen in the US, the ranges and the schuetzen houses are almost all gone.
And according to Hamilton and Rowe the rifles were already evolving into the “modern” style by the 17th c in Europe.

[MuskratMike]

Here are what's probably my last 2 targets for the month. Yesterday warm sunny, and no wind. Today rain, colder and a wind (not good for a .32 caliber). Not bad for an old guy with bad eyesight and shaky hands. Today I shot my Don Bruton made "Mathew Gillespie" tribute rifle. It is a .32 caliber, 35 grains of GOEX 3F, .018 ticking patch greased with a 50/50 mix of T.O.T.W. mink grease and pure Neatsfoot oil and a .310 round ball. good luck to all who shoot this match this month, hopefully we will get a few more shooters.

[Daryl]

Nice entry, Mike.

[alacran]

Good shooting Mike. You tied Taylors X count, but he still has you on group size. Good to see all the entries.

[Daryl]

Taylor and I got out again - bit colder today & "telling" on the hands. Still a better target, but I cheated and used my target rifle.
I have one target to post. I placed balls in 2 of the holes as well as measuring the 4 o'clock hole. Only .278" outside the line, so
over 1/2 ball inside.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If I was only a little bit of a better shot!  It's really a blessing to have my brother for competition because we continuously challenge each other, and maybe place the stress of competition on each other too.  I found the weather bitter today...hands cold and couldn't warm them.  And I shot a more challenging rifle today too, my Kuntz "copy", in .40 cal. with a simple trigger.  Still, with the Chambers' Late Ketland lock, lock time is very fast and the rifle is a joy to shoot.  Here's my two submissions for today...

[alacran]

Great shooting by the Sapergia Brothers. Daryl, since I do not have your target to place over an un-shot target, I have to take a guess. I see your target as a 50 with one clear X.  Those big balls certainly tear up a target.

[Daryl]

Tks alacran - we may get out again, if the weather holds.