Author Topic: Brown Bess Maker? (Read 1853 times)

Mule Brain · « **on:** January 05, 2022, 08:44:51 PM »

Trying to find out any information on who built this, or where it's from? Barrel is 39"

Any info greatly appreciated

lexus rc 350 0 60

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #1 on:** January 05, 2022, 09:40:54 PM »

I'm no expert on Brit guns but I'm pretty positive that this is an antique in fantastic condition, not a contemporary gun.

T*O*F · « **Reply #2 on:** January 05, 2022, 10:51:31 PM »

It's an Irish gun. You can see the name Pattison on the sideplate and Dublin Castle on the lock.

Pattison, Dublin
Mark and John Pattison in business from 1835 - 1850, Robert Pattison is listed as in business in 1850 only.

Mule Brain · « **Reply #3 on:** January 05, 2022, 11:24:43 PM »

Thanks for that info, and your correct, it is a real one!

I bought it as a reproduction, but the more I looked at it I was convinced otherwise.

I found the same gun for sale in England for $ 3,793.00 in pretty poor condition

Ken G · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2022, 12:00:53 AM »

Much better feeling than buying an original and finding out it is a reproduction. Nice find!

Ken

T*O*F · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2022, 12:13:34 AM »

It was no doubt from a stand of arms used to protect the castle, #6 of 11. That provenance makes it a highly desirable arm.
You might google Dublin Castle for more info about what was going on during the period of manufacture. Probably pretty interesting stuff.

smart dog · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2022, 04:05:35 PM »

Hi Mule Brain,
My guess is that it is a Irish militia or volunteer musket. It has London Gunmakers Guild proofs on the barrel rather than the usual Tower proofs. It looks to be an India pattern musket. The lock does not have the usual double line border and appears to lack the government ownership arrow mark under the pan, which suggests it was not government issue. The lock is the style used on pattern 1777 short land muskets but I am sure this gun was made much later. The numbers on the butt plate probably indicate company 6 gun #11. The link below is to a thread in wich I am building Dublin Castle pattern 1769 short land musket. I discuss features unique to Irish Establishment guns as I go. It may be useful to you.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/turning-a-pedersoli-bess-into-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/

dave

Mule Brain · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2022, 05:09:14 PM »

Thanks for the info!

The lock has the arrow mark, it is just hard to see in the picture. The 6-11 mark in on top of the butt plate, and there is no thumb plate.
The one I found for sale in England by the same maker is India First Pattern from the 1790's-1820's

Here are a couple more pics of the lock plate

smart dog · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2022, 07:57:16 PM »

Hi Mule Brain,
Those markings are very strange. The arrow mark is always pointed toward the flint cock not upward. The "Dublin Castle" and crown over GR are very deeply cut or stamped, very uncharacteristic of Dublin Castle engraving, which was light and crude. The lock had to be made before 1830 otherwise it would be marked WR for King William or VR for Queen Victoria. That raises a question about the Pattison stamp. If they started business in 1835 it means the lock was made and marked before they were in business. Maybe they used old parts or perhaps they just retailed this musket as a used gun.

dave

Mule Brain · « **Reply #9 on:** January 06, 2022, 09:27:33 PM »

Further research from across the pond states other possible builder Maybe Mark and John Pattison, or perhaps Thomas Pattison.

Clowdis · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2022, 02:48:24 AM »

The "N" in Dublin is upside down. Very unlike an English armory.

2 shots · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2022, 03:36:40 AM »

hi, on the tower 3 rd models [ india pattern] the swan cocks were used up to 1807 after that they used a reinforced cock. dont know about dublin.

Mule Brain · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2022, 04:44:22 AM »

Quote from: Clowdis on January 07, 2022, 02:48:24 AM

The "N" in Dublin is upside down. Very unlike an English armory.

Or backwards was told that sometimes the Irish did that, as well do the crown differently

Mule Brain · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2022, 01:22:09 AM »

Thought I would add some more important pictures

davec2 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2022, 02:54:11 AM »

I know nothing about a Bess, but I have been looking carefully at the "Dublin Castle" lettering and the "GR" under the crown. They do not look at all like slightly corroded engraved letters. They look like a deep acid etch to me. Just a thought.

smart dog · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2022, 05:08:20 AM »

Hi,
Dave C is right. The lettering looks really odd. The slash marks are production marks that identify all the components that go with an individual musket. Remember, there were no truly interchangeable parts because the guns were hand made. The stock looks authentic but there is something odd about the lock. Also the side plate should be convex in cross section not flat and flush with the wood. The internal screw heads all look very clean and lack wear. It is my understanding that no muskets were marked Dublin Castle after 1798 so this gun has a lot of confusing components that don't add up very well except possibly as some volunteer or militia musket cobbled together from old and newer parts.

dave

Mule Brain · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2022, 06:58:02 AM »

https://sallyantiques.co.uk/product/first-india-pattern-39-brown-bess-flintlock-musket-irish-reymarks-c-1796-1800/

Here is nearly identical one made by Pattison as well. For sale in the UK

It has an identical side plate as mine

smart dog · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2022, 03:26:36 PM »

Hi,
The write up says the marks on the lock plate were added later by a collector. Also the barrel has Tower proof marks. Again, the side plate is incorrect for government issued India pattern muskets. I think Pattison cobbled together guns from old surplus parts and retailed them to somebody.

dave

Mule Brain · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2022, 03:54:02 PM »

This is a much better example, just scroll down to see it. They also give important information on the type.

These are demanding pretty good prices, and this one is $ 5,364.00

RARE AND ORIGINAL DUBLIN CASTLE BROWN BESS FLINTLOCK MUSKET CIRCA 1795

A rare Dublin Castle Brown Bess Flintlock Musket. 39" barrel in very good condition with proofs and inspectors crown mark between, regulation .75" bore, foresight/bayonet stud. Lockplate and furniture with no border line engraving (as noted on later genuine Dublin Castle locks) with DUBLIN CASTLE engraved to tail, Crown over GR under pan, Swan Neck cock of 1793 pattern, all original with excellent patina. Feint but distinguishable 4 on inside of lockplate immediately to the right of the mainspring to bolster attachment screw (4 with a crown was the Irish inspectors stamp/number as noted by Goldberg and Mowbray book, page 83, of "The Brown Bess"). Very strong working action. Regulation 1793 brass furniture marked 1/17 to the buttplate tang with the Dublin Castle feature (seen on the handful of these 39" muskets surviving) of a flat sideplate (as opposed to rounded/raised on normal 1793 Pattern) marked PATTISON. M. J Pattison was a Government contractor who had a business in Dublin c1790-1840. Good original stock with general handling marks, some old filled wormholes, minor infill repair to left hand side rear barrel pin area, old repaired crack between lockplate and triggerguard. Iron ramrod looks to be original. 55" overall length.

https://historicarmsgallery.co.uk/longarms-and-blunderbuss

Robert Wolfe · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2022, 09:41:09 PM »

Interesting that the Historical Arms Gallery one that Mule Brain posted also has the "N" in Dublin backwards.

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Author Topic: Brown Bess Maker? (Read 1853 times)