Author Topic: Half Stock/Philadelpha marked Lock (Read 2137 times)

monro1066 · « **on:** January 06, 2022, 10:58:49 AM »

Hi all .....any idea as to maker ?
New information at Bottom
36 Inch Barrell
4.25 inch lockplate
detailed work engraving everywhere on this gun....go to the patchbox release button image...the button body is either
Ebony or Horn....a very fine brass inlay and its engraved ...just a really nice touch

Robert Wolfe · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2022, 05:41:32 PM »

What is the word above Philadelphia on the lock?

smylee grouch · « **Reply #2 on:** January 06, 2022, 06:20:27 PM »

The rifle kinda looks like a Jacob Kuntz made gun to me.

monro1066 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 06, 2022, 08:37:58 PM »

The text above the PHILA
Reads (First 3 letters only decipherable )
PEL those letters are definite
Thankyou in advance

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #4 on:** January 06, 2022, 08:59:53 PM »

Love that patchbox

mr. no gold · « **Reply #5 on:** January 06, 2022, 09:19:06 PM »

Kunz makes as much sense as anyone else. My first thought was NY, or New England, but Philadelphia fits a whole lot better as a place of origin. It is a very pretty gun and it is nine to see it. Thank you for posting the photos.
Dick

monro1066 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 06, 2022, 09:37:47 PM »

I have been trying to find a Kunz with a single side bolt...are there any known ?
I just cannot find one image showing a singleside bolt/lock bolt

TY for replies to date

smylee grouch · « **Reply #7 on:** January 06, 2022, 10:59:13 PM »

The butt stock profile, cheek piece, patch box, and engraving, checkering, butt plate, toe plate and rectangular button, and lock among a few other things makes it look like other Kuntz rifles I have seen pics of. I think Kuntz moved to Philly in 1810 or so.

LynnC · « **Reply #8 on:** January 07, 2022, 02:20:07 AM »

Please cock the flint cock and take another photo for us. Perhaps the upper lettering will be deciphered. Thanks for sharing your rifle.

mbriggs · « **Reply #9 on:** January 07, 2022, 07:00:59 AM »

Monro1066
To answer your question about never seeing a Kuntz rifle with a single sideplate screw, go down 8 topics on this site to the subject marked:

"Jacob Kuntz Ca 1840 rifle with European influence"

When you open that topic - click on the hyperlink to the Sotheby's auction of the rifle to see the photos and you will see a signed Kuntz with a single side plate screw.

Amazing when you can ask a question and have it answered at the same place. (smile)

Michael

monro1066 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 07, 2022, 07:22:29 AM »

Close up as best I could magnify and save in Photo editing .
Thankyou for the directing to the other half stock recently discussed .

LynnC · « **Reply #11 on:** January 07, 2022, 07:27:10 AM »

Hmmmm. Good photo. PELONG ? or P E Long

monro1066 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 07, 2022, 07:43:21 AM »

Yes definitely PEL and I believe anything after that could only be a guess ?
Any PEL lockmakers ?PEL Hardware suppliers back then?
The perimeter engraving on this lock matches all other engraved areas ...
so ready made lock then engraved by the maker?

mr. no gold · « **Reply #13 on:** January 07, 2022, 08:24:28 AM »

It might be 'PELOUX' who made locks used by some of the St. Louis plains rifle builders. He may have made rifles as well. Somewhere, in some book is rifle made by him. Let me think on it awhile.
Dick

smylee grouch · « **Reply #14 on:** January 07, 2022, 11:54:40 AM »

There is a Peloux marked smooth rifle shown in one of Shumway's books. There could have been some association between Peloux and Kuntz. I'm thinking " Longrifles of Note " for the name of the book. IIRC the Peloux gun had a 48 inch barrel and side opening patch box, steel mounted. It might also have been The Kentucky Rifle an True American Heritage in Pictures or some thing like that.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #15 on:** January 07, 2022, 03:39:02 PM »

Quote from: monro1066 on January 06, 2022, 09:37:47 PM

I have been trying to find a Kunz with a single side bolt...are there any known ?
I just cannot find one image showing a singleside bolt/lock bolt

TY for replies to date

Here is the URL to the rifle Michael mentioned https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2022/the-william-k-du-pont-collection-important-americana-from-rocky-hill/carved-walnut-and-engraved-steel-german-silver
Dennis

monro1066 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2022, 12:12:53 PM »

Thankyou to all who have taken time to share their knowledge and opinions .

JTR · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2022, 07:28:08 PM »

My thoughts on this one, if it's a Kuntz, is if you compare the engraving quality on this one vs other Kuntz rifles, he would have had to be a Deaths Door when he did the work.
For example, compare the patchbox engraving on this one, and the silver mounted one Dennis linked.
Possibly, but certainly doesn't look like the same hand.

monro1066 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2022, 06:19:32 AM »

P.Peloux gunmaker 1820's (putting it out there that he made complete gun and lock too ??)
Thankyou for the heads up on Peloux ...(Smylee Grouch and JTR re engraving )
JTR I believe is spot on with the assertion the engraving isnt Kuntz .
see American Firearms Makers
Page 94 (in my 1953 Edition )
It reads
P.Peloux
'Maker of Ky rifles about 1820 ,Philadelphia,PA '

The Below text is quoted from Morphy s auction house (hope Im not breaking any Copy laws ?) listing describing a pair of Pistols .
Interestingly 3 barrel pistols .
Peter Peloux was a gunsmith who had been working under M.T. Wickham at the US Arsenal on the Schuylkill in Philadelphia between 1812 and 1815. After the War of 1812, Peloux had his own shop at 190 Cedar Street in Philadelphia and was listed in city directories between 1816 and 1829. Several conventional flintlock rifles by Peloux are known. He later became the superintendent at the Krider Gun Factory. Peloux would have had a knowledge of the Chambers system and the ability to make the multi-shot system. The pair was possible made for trial, experimental purposes, or as a sample. The barrels are round, one is marked with British ordnance proofs at the breech, the other is unmarked. Both have their original iron ramrods. The intricate locks are stamped "PELOUX/PHILA" [/b]

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2022, 10:32:50 PM »

Nifty looking pair of pistols there - how did they work? difficult to think of a way for multiple shots with the flint halfway up the barrel.

What would be the "Chambers Method"? They look to be very well made. Are they on display any where?, or part of a private collection?

Bill Paton · « **Reply #20 on:** January 23, 2022, 12:02:16 AM »

"Chambers method” is the “Roman candle” method of multiply discharging a muzzle loading arm. Multiple charges stacked in the bore, with each bullet having a “touch hole” with or without a fuze passing from the forward charge to the next charge behind. That’s why the locks are part way down the barrels of those pistols. Next time you shoot one of those, if they stop going off before all balls are shot, don’t look down the barrel for quite a while! ;-)

Bill Paton

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2022, 12:22:06 AM »

Sure not the most sane way of multiple shots! Yikes - the bullets- - - they just keep coming!

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Author Topic: Half Stock/Philadelpha marked Lock (Read 2137 times)