Author Topic: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!  (Read 25760 times)

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9741
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2022, 08:58:43 AM »
I have for years detested “kits” though I have done a few. Kibler’s work, however, is different. All the objections are gone. I built one and have one or maybe 2 on order.
I think he has done us a service in general and while it could have an impact on the scratch builder it’s  the coming thing I think. So get used to it. I actually applaud Jim Kibler for this.
I wish someone would do a mid-1830s J&S Hawken 1/2 stock like the ETC rifle in Helena or one of the earlier rifles shown in Baird’s book. With an early breech, the long trigger bar and tang. The fully evolved, long tang and trigger  bar are by far the best, most durable ML hunting rifle ever produced.  A flint version would not upset me either. The shotgun butt English rifle is great too, and rifles over 54-58 are better with the English buttstock design. Yes I have hunted with and shot both.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2440
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2022, 11:44:29 AM »
Dan, I agree with you and Dave - Jim's kits are attracting folks who otherwise wouldn't even think of building a longrifle, and find that custom makers are fairly high priced.

Kibler provides a "personalized" firearm that most any builder will be proud of.  AND - he leaves plenty of room for personalization, should a customer lean in that direction.  Heck, he even has "How To Do It" videos, detailing every step in the process. 

And the result is a great draw for MORE people to join our muzzle-stuffer crowd!

The type of muzzle loading firearms that we use (and make) is really a far cry from the 409 primer group.  No fiberglass, no "in-line" actions.  Just wood and steel and brass, as they have been made for over 250 years, and really had a big footprint in our history.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2180
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2022, 06:06:11 PM »
I suspect the commercial mass producers are taking notice of the Kibler's success with their historically correct offerings and are thinking, "perhaps we better start producing rifles that actually look like the guns we named them after".

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 991
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2022, 07:24:31 PM »
I suspect the commercial mass producers are taking notice of the Kibler's success with their historically correct offerings and are thinking, "perhaps we better start producing rifles that actually look like the guns we named them after".

I doubt it. Even with Kibler's success and his amazing products, I doubt he is making a dent in the sale of imported, mass produced rifles available through popular sporting goods stores like Cabelas. Kibler's rifles are by far better than theirs, but most of the people buying a $500 Lyman "Trade Rifle" or Traditions "Kentucky" aren't as interested in historical accuracy or don't know as much about historical accuracy even if they would be interested. They are more interested in getting a "cool muzzleloader" to go shoot or to take advantage of muzzleloading hunting seasons. That's why tons of "Hawken" and "Kentucky" rifles out there are nothing like the originals in any of the finer details, but they have remained popular for generations now. I've seen a bunch of social media posts and YouTube videos over the years from people that know a lot more about modern guns that clearly think that a Traditions, Pedersoli, Lyman, etc. rifle is "historically accurate" simply based on the company's advertising, including influential people in the gun world. The bulk of their audience doesn't know the difference since they aren't history minded muzzleloading nerds like the wonderful folks on this forum.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 11:26:59 PM by Seth I. »
I am the Lead Historian and a Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2022, 07:38:15 PM »
Seth,

You nailed it.

Don Richards
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
    • Personal Website
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2022, 08:28:11 PM »
Maybe this is old news, but I was reading on Kibler Facebook page that Jim has procured a 5 axis machining center!
   I am a machinist by Trade and I can say that "most" machine shops in West Michigan do not have a 5 axis, but a couple do and farm out the service to those shops that need it.
   Jim's process's are proprietary, but I suspect the 5 axis machining will allow fewer setups and also possibly higher spindle speeds. most metal process CNC mills have a top spindle speed of approx 5,000 to 8,000 RPM....where as wood routers commonly run approx 20,000 RPM.
    This is just speculating on my part, but I believe the 5 axis will allow more stocks to be made per day and also likely improve quality to even higher standard than we now enjoy from Kibler...impressive as Kibler stocks are all ready the best available IMHO.
       Speculation on my part, but things Jim may be able to do with 5 axis is say....drill tang bolt holes on an angle without a part setup change, this saves time And improves accuracy, he may also be able to "pick out" the fine corners or difficult area's in the inlets.... Not that it's needful as they are all ready Great. Spindle speed and feed rates could improve surface fiinish, but I have no idea what the specs are on the machine he purchased.
   Other info gleaned from Facebook is there is a new rifle coming out with the Fowler and looks like the Rifle may actually be released Before the Fowler. I personally want the Fowler, but More kit options from Kibler can only be a GOOD thing!  I hope Jim does a Fine English Fowler eventually, if the first Fowler is a premium executed trade gun, It will suit my shooting needs(for now)
   Anyone know anything about what the new rifle might be? My SMR kit is on order, so all I can do is speculate until it ships! 8)

Hunterdude,

You've nailed it pretty well.  Yes, we have a new stock machining center on the floor right now.  This will be significantly more capable than our current machine producing stocks on a number of levels. 

Generally, increasing the number of axis of a machine allows for fewer set-ups during machining.  This alone increases productivity and quality.  In addition, as mentioned, a more complete stock will be able to be produced.  Corners can be "picked" out etc.  My goal is to basically eliminate the need for a chisel or knife for any inletting.  With the size (25,000 lbs) and rigidity of this new machine I suspect surface finish to improve as well.  Yes, it has a high speed spindle (greater than 20k rpm). 

One of the big capabilities this will add is the ability to easily cut for inlays, patchboxes etc.   Finally one of the most exciting capabilities this machine will offer is the ability to perform fantastic incised carving.  We'll be adding some rifles where incised carving is very appropriate to our line-up to take advantage of this capability.  In order to carve a stock well, very high-quality stock wood will be required.  With this being the case and to secure availability of curly maple, we are in the process of setting up to mill our own logs.  This has been a pretty big project but fun.  It's involved buying a straight truck to haul logs, a sawmill, drying kiln etc.

Yes, we are working on another rifle offering.  This is based to some degree on the original commonly referred to as the "Woodsrunner" rifle.  It should make for a fantastic handling rifle.  This project is about 75% complete.  The fowling piece will follow.  It is about 25% complete.  Devoting time for developing new designs has been a challenge for us, so this past year we have been fortunate to have the help of Eric Von Aschwege.  He has been working to learn wax injection mold making etc. and doing a fine job. 

I can say with certainty that our presence has expanded the world of traditional flintlock rifles.  Many of our customers are entirely new and now may become part of this culture we all enjoy.  I was talking with a supplier the other day, whom many of you would know.  His comment was that all of us are competing for a couple thousand rifle sales a year.   I won't be specific about our sales, but I can say this isn't true.  In the recent past, this was much more of an exclusive club.  There were significant obstacles to become involved.  I believe we've changed this.  Some might like the idea of this being their little club, but times are changing.  Many of the people involved in the muzzleloading world are traditional, older, conservative and don't like change.  This goes for organizations as well.  When we look at this, it kind of makes us shake our heads. 

As far as whether we are good for custom gunbuilding, I don't really know.  I do know, that the idea of significant numbers of people devoting a large part of their lives to becoming custom gunbuilders isn't reasonable to expect.  Especially with the mindset and world we live in today.  Times change. 

I may have missed some points, but I've posted a lot already.  Maybe we'll do a few videos about some of the topics we've talked about here.  Thank you for all the kind words of support.  We had a fantastic year in 2021 and expect this year to be even better. 

All the best,
Jim


Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9741
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2022, 09:14:40 PM »
I suspect the commercial mass producers are taking notice of the Kibler's success with their historically correct offerings and are thinking, "perhaps we better start producing rifles that actually look like the guns we named them after".

They would need someone to make something that looked right. AND some are making guns for people who think a rifle is supposed to be stocked like a Win M-70.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12522
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2022, 09:18:36 PM »
Jim, thanks for recapping your thoughts and providing us with a clear picture.  You are so fortunate to have Eric on board too.  He's a natural and definitely "has the knack".  And a finer young builder doesn't exist.  Nicely done.
As for the rest of us, we are excited to see what is next from your shop.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13166
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2022, 09:45:32 PM »
Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
    • Personal Website
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2022, 10:20:48 PM »
Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(

Don’t worry Mike.  After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!

Offline Frank

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 966
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2022, 10:23:46 PM »
Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(

Don’t worry Mike.  After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!

Full stock or Half stock, Flint or percussion?

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4283
    • Personal Website
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2022, 10:32:39 PM »
Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(

Don’t worry Mike.  After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!

Full stock or Half stock, Flint or percussion?

It will definitely be a half-stocked percussion. 

Offline EC121

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1565
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2022, 10:46:59 PM »
When you design the new "woodsrunner" rifle how about a little shorter LOP.  That is the reason I haven't bought one of your kits.
Brice Stultz

Offline Hunterdude

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2022, 11:00:13 PM »
(Quote)
Hunterdude,

You've nailed it pretty well. 
(Quote)

Mr. Kibler, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to give a quite detailed update!
   I am happy my speculation was close! I was thinking about very practical advantages of 5 axis machining a gun stock, but the ability to "Carve" decorative features is awsome!
    I very much wish I could be an employee at Kibler longrifles....is there any upland bird hunting in Ohio? 8)
   Though I fear there is not much time for hunting at the Kibler shop?....The pace must be brisk plus 120% Warp speed busy.

I have to chuckle at the negative minded folks that predicted SMR rifle market would be saturated after a year or 2....I believe it is going on 5 years with a 10 week backlog of orders being pretty normal.
  It seems High end quality at a fair price is a business model that Never goes out of style.
    Can someone point me to a photo of a nice example of a Woodsrunner Rifle? Maybe it's the Rifle I did not know I need yet?

Offline MuskratMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2190
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2022, 12:10:45 AM »
Jim Kibler: All I can say is God Bless you for what you do for our passion. I have several flintlocks all custom or semi-custom but the rifle you built for me is always going to by my families heirloom piece. Looking forward to seeing the "Woods Runner" rifle.
Mike McGuire
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Online Randall Steffy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2022, 01:38:13 AM »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13166
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2022, 01:47:01 AM »
When you design the new "woodsrunner" rifle how about a little shorter LOP.  That is the reason I haven't bought one of your kits.
Go over to Cosby's house and run it through the band saw. He'd probably even help. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Coal-Cracker

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2022, 02:03:00 AM »
Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(

Don’t worry Mike.  After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!

That's fantastic!!! Treasure Island was always a favorite! ;)

Offline wapiti22

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2022, 02:17:14 AM »
Thanks for the good news about a Hawken, Jim. Put me first on the list when they are ready!!

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2022, 06:16:59 AM »
Is this the Woodsrunner?


Offline L Meadows

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2022, 06:54:30 AM »
I guess I will stir up all the purists but here goes, Jim do you think you will offer the SMR in percussion?

Offline Hunterdude

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2022, 08:29:49 AM »
Look here to see the woodsrunner rifle.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0

The Woodsrunner in this link may have broad appeal, the architecture looks almost like the blending of Fowler style buttstock with rifle features such as check rest and patchbox, with noticeably short length of pull?
     I would like to learn more, particularly what caliber it is chambered in or what Jim will offer it in?
    I would think this would serve well for younger shooters, and smaller builds, it may also appeal to those that need to hunt with heavy winter clothing or folks that spend a good portion of time walking/stalking game.
    It might make an interesting buck and ball gun? but that is a diffent style barrel and I have no idea if it would be appropriate?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 08:33:38 AM by Hunterdude »

Offline JBJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2022, 03:28:04 PM »
Percussion SMR? By all means!!!!
J.B.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2022, 04:21:30 PM »
Dan, I agree with you and Dave - Jim's kits are attracting folks who otherwise wouldn't even think of building a longrifle, and find that custom makers are fairly high priced.

Kibler provides a "personalized" firearm that most any builder will be proud of.  AND - he leaves plenty of room for personalization, should a customer lean in that direction.  Heck, he even has "How To Do It" videos, detailing every step in the process. 

And the result is a great draw for MORE people to join our muzzle-stuffer crowd!

The type of muzzle loading firearms that we use (and make) is really a far cry from the 409 primer group.  No fiberglass, no "in-line" actions.  Just wood and steel and brass, as they have been made for over 250 years, and really had a big footprint in our history.

The modern muzzle loader was developed to make something available for those who have no idea as to the historical significance of the traditional hand made guns.I was talking recently to a police officer who has a modern type that apparently breaks open like a shotgun and he was complaining about some type of powder that plugged up the flash channel from the primer.I had and have no idea as to what this thing is but disavow any interest in it.The work of the Kibler's has been a major contribution to the survival of the traditional muzzle loading rifle and from what I have personally seen,they offer a major value for very little money.They chose THIS as a source of income and should be commended as well as supported in this unusual endeavour,
Bob Roller

Offline Old Time Hunter

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
Re: Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2022, 05:15:24 PM »
It appears from his comment that Mr Kibler is NOT too concerned with "older, conservative, change resistant" people !!!   THAT is INTERESTING!!!!