Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!

[Hunterdude]

Maybe this is old news, but I was reading on Kibler Facebook page that Jim has procured a 5 axis machining center!
   I am a machinist by Trade and I can say that "most" machine shops in West Michigan do not have a 5 axis, but a couple do and farm out the service to those shops that need it.
   Jim's process's are proprietary, but I suspect the 5 axis machining will allow fewer setups and also possibly higher spindle speeds. most metal process CNC mills have a top spindle speed of approx 5,000 to 8,000 RPM....where as wood routers commonly run approx 20,000 RPM.
    This is just speculating on my part, but I believe the 5 axis will allow more stocks to be made per day and also likely improve quality to even higher standard than we now enjoy from Kibler...impressive as Kibler stocks are all ready the best available IMHO.
       Speculation on my part, but things Jim may be able to do with 5 axis is say....drill tang bolt holes on an angle without a part setup change, this saves time And improves accuracy, he may also be able to "pick out" the fine corners or difficult area's in the inlets.... Not that it's needful as they are all ready Great. Spindle speed and feed rates could improve surface fiinish, but I have no idea what the specs are on the machine he purchased.
   Other info gleaned from Facebook is there is a new rifle coming out with the Fowler and looks like the Rifle may actually be released Before the Fowler. I personally want the Fowler, but More kit options from Kibler can only be a GOOD thing!  I hope Jim does a Fine English Fowler eventually, if the first Fowler is a premium executed trade gun, It will suit my shooting needs(for now)
   Anyone know anything about what the new rifle might be? My SMR kit is on order, so all I can do is speculate until it ships!

[Hunterdude]

Fowler updates would be a welcome thing here as well....

[bnewberry]

I would like to see this post. What is  the Facebook page where you saw this?

As for a new rifle, we were teased that he was considering producing a Hawken style rifle kit.

[Hunterdude]

I would like to see this post. What is  the Facebook page where you saw this?



As for a new rifle, we were teased that he was considering producing a Hawken style rifle kit.

The post can be a little hard to find, I believe there is only (1) Jim Kibler on Facebook.

Once you are on his Facebook page, look about in the middle of the screen, there is a "tool bar" and on the far left it says "Home" and "photos" and some other options....click on "posts".....the top post (At this time) is about buying Kibler gift certificates for Christmas gifts....click on the comments below this post, there where 8 comments at the time I am writing this....I think it was the 6th one down someone asked for a Fowler update....click on the comments below the Fowler update question and Jim speaks of the new rifle being about 75% done and also talks briefly of the new 5 axis plus machining center and that it should improve quality.

This is all I read, everything else in my post is pure speculation on my part. Let me know if you can not find the post I spoke of? Maybe I can make better directions, I will go back to Facebook and take a look.

Update: it was KAM Miller that asked about Fowler, click on the comments below his question and Jim Kibler typed his reply.

[Hunterdude]

I will try to make a link right to the Facebook post, but I am not sure it will work.


https://m.facebook.com/jimkibler.net/photos/a.1845115502301458/2786960951450237/?type=3&ref=page_internal&__tn__=%2AW-R


This link gets you close....scroll down till you see the question about Fowlers posted by KAM Miller....you will still have to click on reply's under the Fowler question, the very first reply is from Jim.

[Scota4570]

I ruined a SMR tang by a fumble drop accident.  I got my replacement plug in 3-days.  I compared to the one I ruined.  Dead nuts the same in every way I could measured down the tool marks.  The thread fit was a snug hand pressure turn with no slop at all.
Even the plug face had a little "swirlie" from finishing it smooth, the "swirlie" was indexed the same as the old plug.    It indexed and fit on both faces with the same torque as the old plug.  No blending with the barrel, was needed.  Bottom line, no fitting was necessary.  I went to over it with birch wood casey hot brown.    For insurance I gave it a coat of LMF slow brown to cook over night to make it exactly like the barrel.  It looks perfect. Total time, 15 min.   The precision of what Kibler is making is amazing.  More amazing is that he is making them in quantity,   


Great way to produce a gun almost exactly like someone else has done. Why would you do that? 

The majority of ML shooters do that with their mass market factory made guns.  His basic guns get you a couple of hundred hours into the build.  From there I add custom features and art work.  After that I have a semi custom rifle with a great lock and a quality barrel.  If I start from a plank, remake a lock, and fabricate a bunch of parts when I get to the Kibler stage of completion I am running out of gas. 

[Hunterdude]

Great way to produce a gun almost exactly like someone else has done. Why would you do that?

Because not every "new guy" knows a buddy they can pester for months to loan them an authentic Soddy Daisy to borrow for a year so they can copy it and nail the correct architecture.
    Jim's kits will put thousands of critters in the stew pot over the next few years, and the "new guys" having lived with/shot great authentic architecture, (and top performing rifles) may well advance there skills to hand carve a Soddy Daisy a few years down the road vs A "Traditions" Flintlock kit failure (or similar) is more likely to cause them to leave the sport permanently.
     If thru Jim's Very Hard work an average Joe collage kid can build a fine quality correct architecture rifle on his kitchen table, then go out and harvest game or place well at a shooting event....that guy/gal will be hooked for life....we will have "new blood" in our ranks and maybe GOEX will start making American made black powder for us all to shoot again. (Thank you for All you do Mr. Jim Kibler) -Ben

[bnewberry]

Thanks!

Here is the comment mentioned. I am guessing it will be a Hawken!

Jim Kibler
Kam Miller Molds for hardware are mostly made. Some of the CAD work is done as well. Another rifle will be available first. This rifle project is about 75% done. We want things to be just right before they are released. Stocks for both of these two new kits will be made on a brand new 5 axis plus, machining center. Fit and finish should be even better than before.

[Spalding]

Don’t have any inside information, but Jim did pose a question here a few months back if any would be interested in a Hawken type rifle.

Bob

[flehto]

We've come a long way since the  many discussions years ago that stressed "old methods" of making MLers. Now we've gone high tech w/ unimaginable building    accuracy w/ a company that's  saturating and destroying  the market of builders who produce  1-5 guns per year the "old way". These high tech produced MLers can be assembled by a person w/ zero experience and it's w/o a doubt a fine gun but the future for actual gunbuilding is becoming  a dead end.

The builders who have the skill to  replicate museum guns and particular styles wanted by the customer  won't be affected that much by these high tech guns, but the 1-5 guns per year builders will have a difficult time competing against these high tech built guns....already there are assemblers of these high tech gun kits who are advertising these  completed high tech   LRs as a business. I  was  one of those 1-5 guns per year builders because of other obligations   and finally quit because of poor eyesight and formerly regretted  not building, but now perhaps I'm glad I quit.

It's said by some that these high tech kits are good for MLing because they'll introduce some into building the "old way"...... to me that's wishfull thinking in this modern age which doesn't reward hands on skills......Fred 







.

[Mule Brain]

Spoke to Jim's wife earlier this week, and the smooth bore should be available in a couple months. 

[Bob Roller]

The Hawken market is not what it was beginning in the late 1960's with John Baird's book and Tom Dawson's ability to make a copy that could be sold as an antique.It kept Bill Large,me and others busy making barrels and locks and triggers and then faded after a long run of about 10 years.The "Flint"Hawken popped up even with no corresponding relic to copy and i offered a Ketland lock with reenforced cock that was used by a few but rejected by most because I insisted on being paid to make it.
Most Americans have no idea as to the excellence of the half stock English percussion rifles in both hunting and target rifle configurations that surpass anything from Jake and Sam Hawken for the same amount of work and in some guns less work.
The locks for the English guns are usually very high quality and elaborately done but there are simpler internal configurations that work as well as the fancy ones that can be made with the technology now available.Kibler's Ketland flintlock is proof of that idea.
Bob Roller

[James Rogers]

We've come a long way since the  many discussions years ago that stressed "old methods" of making MLers. Now we've gone high tech w/ unimaginable building    accuracy w/ a company that's  saturating and destroying  the market of builders who produce  1-5 guns per year the "old way". These high tech produced MLers can be assembled by a person w/ zero experience and it's w/o a doubt a fine gun but the future for actual gunbuilding is becoming  a dead end.

The builders who have the skill to  replicate museum guns and particular styles wanted by the customer  won't be affected that much by these high tech guns, but the 1-5 guns per year builders will have a difficult time competing against these high tech built guns....already there are assemblers of these high tech gun kits who are advertising these  completed high tech   LRs as a business. I  was  one of those 1-5 guns per year builders because of other obligations   and finally quit because of poor eyesight and formerly regretted  not building, but now perhaps I'm glad I quit.

It's said by some that these high tech kits are good for MLing because they'll introduce some into building the "old way"...... to me that's wishfull thinking in this modern age which doesn't reward hands on skills......Fred 







.

IMO
There will always be a small remnant who want to learn the old traditional ways. There was only a remnant prior to this present period of CNC kits.
  The same holds true in leather work. There are few that can hand stitch in the old traditional style and fewer who can do it with any level of competence.  Most today simply pre-punch their holes in some manner and then basically lace their threads instead of stitching.  That said, there are still a few who desire to learn the old ways and even a few customers who are willing to pay for that work to be done.
 I dont believe these modern kits are doing anything  but good by increasing the numbers of participants.  Those who have the desire to do more will do it just like the guys 30 years ago who went the steps further than the masses who only halfway completed a parts set before giving up.

[varsity07840]

The Hawken market is not what it was beginning in the late 1960's with John Baird's book and Tom Dawson's ability to make a copy that could be sold as an antique.It kept Bill Large,me and others busy making barrels and locks and triggers and then faded after a long run of about 10 years.The "Flint"Hawken popped up even with no corresponding relic to copy and i offered a Ketland lock with reenforced cock that was used by a few but rejected by most because I insisted on being paid to make it.
Most Americans have no idea as to the excellence of the half stock English percussion rifles in both hunting and target rifle configurations that surpass anything from Jake and Sam Hawken for the same amount of work and in some guns less work.
The locks for the English guns are usually very high quality and elaborately done but there are simpler internal configurations that work as well as the fancy ones that can be made with the technology now available.Kibler's Ketland flintlock is proof of that idea.
Bob Roller

I had an English percussion half stock made by Westley Richards that was a work of art  and the finest handling hunting rifle I've ever owned.

[Hunterdude]

Thanks!

Here is the comment mentioned. I am guessing it will be a Hawken!

Jim Kibler
Kam Miller Molds for hardware are mostly made. Some of the CAD work is done as well. Another rifle will be available first. This rifle project is about 75% done. We want things to be just right before they are released. Stocks for both of these two new kits will be made on a brand new 5 axis plus, machining center. Fit and finish should be even better than before.

Thank you for posting this quote! I am not a member of Facebook and that may be the reason I could not copy and paste this quote with my cell phone.

If the smooth bore is 2 months out.....perhaps the new rifle is a little less than 2 months out based on the content of the quote.

[Mike Brooks]

The majority of ML shooters do that with their mass market factory made guns.  His basic guns get you a couple of hundred hours into the build.

If I had the choice of taking a couple hundred hours to build a gun or driving a nail through my foot, I'd take the nail in the foot every time.

[Tilefish]

I don't think the new CNC high tech kit's will ever replace the [ Mike Brook's, Allen Martin's, or Louie Parker's ] of the world. There is something surreal about holding a rifle that was built by hand from a plank of wood by a true craftsman. On the other hand. I am sure there are plenty of individuals including myself. That will never have the skill to be able to build from a plank. But a Kibler kit will allow someone with limited wood working skill's like myself to " build / assemble" a rifle of there own.

[Hunterdude]

The idea that Kibler kits hurt the guy that builds 1to 5 rifles a year does not hold "water" with me. This thought process lacks Perspective.
    Let's put the shoe on the other foot....lets say (You) are the "new guy" that wants to commission a rifle to shoot at the next Friendship Indiana meet....I don't think Hershel House is building anymore, so I contacted Mike Miller, it will be 2 Years before he can even Start my rifle (Kibler has not hurt him at all)......So I commission a rifle from "said" 1-5 a year builder guy who can get the Rifle done by Friendship event.....then take my new hand made rifle to event only to see some masterful built rifles! Bummed that My rifle does not look quite right....I set out to sell it and get on the Mike Miller waiting list.....only to find the Rifle I paid $3000 for can not be sold for even $700-$1000

So if Kibler is keeping the "new guy" from being taken to the cleaners, it IS healthy for the sport.
     It is not my intention to sound harsh to the builders that dabble in rifle building, BUT just because a rifle was "hand hewn" from a tree....and took "a really long time" to make, does not guarantee it ends up as Art in the shape of a Rifle. That comes from the Skill in the Master builders hands that can take a lifetime to develop.
   If Kibler kits encourage 1 to 5 rifle a year builders to advance there skills to a higher level of art form, then They will also have a waiting list of folks willing to get in line and wait for quality that equals Art itself. Hershel's rifles now command much more $$$ used than the buyer paid for them new....this is also an indicator of when a builders skills have reached Art level.
   

[Dphariss]

The Hawken market is not what it was beginning in the late 1960's with John Baird's book and Tom Dawson's ability to make a copy that could be sold as an antique.It kept Bill Large,me and others busy making barrels and locks and triggers and then faded after a long run of about 10 years.The "Flint"Hawken popped up even with no corresponding relic to copy and i offered a Ketland lock with reenforced cock that was used by a few but rejected by most because I insisted on being paid to make it.
Most Americans have no idea as to the excellence of the half stock English percussion rifles in both hunting and target rifle configurations that surpass anything from Jake and Sam Hawken for the same amount of work and in some guns less work.
The locks for the English guns are usually very high quality and elaborately done but there are simpler internal configurations that work as well as the fancy ones that can be made with the technology now available.Kibler's Ketland flintlock is proof of that idea.
Bob Roller

Its pretty obvious that the 1/2 stock Hawken came from the English sporting rifle. The look from the lock forward is identical to the double key English 1/2 stock rifle of the late 18th and early 19th C.
However, in the usage the rifles were put to in the American West the English rifle had some major problems. They were often overtwisted and thus were very limited in velocity. See “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” by Forsythe. They were weaker in the wrist than the long tang Hawken. Francis Parkman writes of meeting with a couple of English sportsman during the trip that resulted in his “The Oregon Trail” and both their rifles had been broken in the wrist and repaired. Horseback use is notoriously hard on firearms too this day. I am sure that with some of the horses in use in the American West it was even worse. Deer stalking in some estate in England was not like riding horse in Wyoming 1000 miles from the gunsmith that made the rifle. And the Hawken bros were not catering to the same clientele as Manton for example. The rifles and shotguns made for landed gentry, peers and royalty were a far cry in most cases from what the common people would use (if they even could). So comparing a
Rifle made for the Duke of York or some such to a rifle made even for someone of means like Ashely is an applied to oranges thing.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Fred:  I don't think we have a thing to worry about.  There will always be those builders who build from scratch, and I believe their work will always be cherished.  I think back to why I do this craft, and it certainly was not to make a lot of money.  I needed to fulfill something within me and this need is as strong now as it was when I first became interested and able to do the work.  I'm confident that others feel the same way.

[Hunterdude]

Fred:  I don't think we have a thing to worry about.  There will always be those builders who build from scratch, and I believe their work will always be cherished.  I think back to why I do this craft, and it certainly was not to make a lot of money.  I needed to fulfill something within me and this need is as strong now as it was when I first became interested and able to do the work.  I'm confident that others feel the same way.

I agree....my Grandfather said "if you study a "craft/skill" long enough, and hard enough....it will begin to reveil it's secrets to you.
     I think many of the great rifle builders began building rifles even though they could not sell them for profit....they build for the love of the process and to make each rifle better than the last.....eventually the proficient skill and Art form comes, and they find there work is in demand. Only a select few will be able to feed a family on gun building, but we can all enjoy the sport and craft on our own terms.

[Bob Roller]

I have closely examined the Parkman rifle which was a J&S Hawken but marked Hoffman&Campbell.It was not a strong gun in spite of the trigger bar reenforcement and terribly weak thru the lock area.
Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi,
I am very excited to hear this.  I really support Jim and Katherine's efforts because they provide a level of quality to customers who had so few good options available to them.  Really fine traditional muzzleloading guns are now available to a host of folks who are not inclined or in a position to build their own guns from scratch or most of the the other kits.  Moreover, many folks may simply not want or be able to put out that effort.  So they are stuck with a bunch of mass produced garbage.  Katherine and Jim offer them reasonably priced superior designed and produced alternatives.  We need to remember that not everyone wants to work at or has the time and situation to develop the skills to build from scratch.  Jim and Katherine offer them something far better than the mass produced junk they had available.

dave 

[bob in the woods]

The majority of ML shooters do that with their mass market factory made guns.  His basic guns get you a couple of hundred hours into the build.

If I had the choice of taking a couple hundred hours to build a gun or driving a nail through my foot, I'd take the nail in the foot every time.

  Laughed so hard, I almost choked !!!!   Pure gold !

[smart dog]

Hi Fred,
The world has rarely ever rewarded those with hand skills.  The gun makers of yore worked for peanuts and only their shop or business owners had the chance to get wealthy.  The only real difference is we are now much more an "instant gratification and throw away" culture.  Jim and Katherine offer high quality products to folks who mostly had commercial junk available to them.  Sure there will be some trying to use Kibler kits as an easy way to palm themselves off as "custom" builders but most lack any capacity to make their guns into anything but Kiblers.  And that is OK in my book.  I don't think it takes work away from any other custom builders except maybe those few who try to work within the same price points.   I think there is room for everyone.  Unfortunately, skilled hand working gun makers will almost never be paid what their time is worth and it has always been so.

dave