Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!

[Hunterdude]

Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things.    However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!.  Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins?  Which time period and school?     I don't see anything in Kindig and  Google produced a few pics but not any real background.

I'm not a builder, but wish I were.  I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.

Thanks

I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
    But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
   Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
   I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.
     There was a Fine English Fowler that was made my Jim in the article as well, it has the finest architecture I have seen in a Fowler! It has the most tasteful wire inlays I have ever seen, and trimmed in Stirling silver. If Jim could offer us a base version of this Fowler, just feature the architecture but offer more "workman grade" furniture would be amazing, I can not find a "fine english Fowler" kit Anywhere. If it where to be offered with German Silver furniture or Stirling Silver furniture upgrades? All the better!

   I have also been thinking about what Jim told us of the new 5 axis machine being capable of doing decorative carving on his stocks....I am wondering out loud if the machine might also be able to produce cuts that could allow the customer to do wire inlay as an optional upgrade? If we are dreaming maybe "Level 1" the 5 axis just draws a very precise pattern on the stock. "Level 2" upgrade the 5 axis actually "stabs in" the cut and the customer can install the wire. For this to happen the 5 axis machine would need the capability of the spindle to be "indexed". A very rigid cutter made and only the very tip thinned down to knife edge thickness. If it where a straight chisel point maybe only .040 to .062 long the "indexing spindle" could "stab in" pretty sharp curves. I do not know if the market is ready for this, but I think the technology in CNC equipment currently exists to make it happen.

  If just the base "Fine English Fowler" where to happen, I would be among the first in line to open my wallet.

[msquared]

I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
    But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
   Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
   I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.

Thanks fo the suggestion.   I have many years worth of Muzzleloader Magazines going back to the 80s (with a few gaps) and will have to find that one.   I'm curious about the history and time period of the Woodsrunner.    The Kibler Colonial is 1760s/1770s and the SMR 1840s, which leaves a big hole in the middle time period-wise.   I would have expected a Golden Age rifle next.  I'm guessing the Woodsrunner fits in there somewhere?

[smylee grouch]

I always thought that Jim Chambers made a pretty nice fowler kit.

[Daryl]

The Chamber's Penn. Fowler is a wonderful pelter - for balls as well.

[Hunterdude]

I always thought that Jim Chambers made a pretty nice fowler kit.

I agree, I have been advised by senior members that the Chambers "officers fusil" would make the best "grouse gun" of all the Chambers offerings, yet the same members caution not to go smaller than 16 gage for a "good shooting" upland bird gun with 12 and 10 gage being desirable. The Officers Fusil is only offered in 20 gage.
    I can see the draw for 20 gage as a nice "all purpose" gun, (great for round ball) but it's not quite a "surgeons scalpel" for grouse. If the specs are not favourable on the new Kibler fowler, I will likely order the Chambers Officers Fusil to get me by for now.
     Jim has expressed interest in providing "nice thin barrels" he has shown he can profile awesome swamped barrels( in house) for his other kits....I am curious if he will profile the Fowler barrels "in house" as well, possibly giving us better barrel profiles than are currently offered? Hopefully something to compete or compare favorable to the Griffin "D" profile that weighs only 3 lb in 16 gage!

The Griffin "D" profile has a stout breech that very Rapid tapers to a very thin profile giving a weight to the rear bias and a light and lively "fast" muzzle. I have read that grouse often only give 1 to 1.25 seconds shot opportunity average in the woods....sometimes a little more, sometimes even less, but the point is anything you can do to your Fowler to make it come on target rapidly is pretty huge. I can see where guys that do not target grouse.... this is no big deal. After hunting grouse all season then going on a pheasant hunt, it seems like a Boeing 747 getting off the ground with ages of time to shoot in comparison to a grouse.

[martin9]

I've shot a lot of upland birds with a 20 cylinder bore. Plenty of gun. Shot some wood ducks with it also. You're not limited by a shell, load it with enough powder and shot to get the job done.

[bob in the woods]

When after geese, or ducks or large game [ round ball ]  my 10 bore  N E fowling gun from Chambers gets the nod.  Here in my woods, a light , fast handling 20 bore is the ticket for partridge. 

[rich pierce]

I’m guessing most flintlock fowlers today are round ball guns or used for turkey. Sure wish I’d see more small game around here. Any, actually. I’m finishing a 20 ga trade gun and have a .69 New England fowler of French styling. That should cover it especially if I get the .69 jug choked.

[Craig Wilcox]

I doubt whether Kibler's 5-axis machines could do the work for silver wire inlay.

You see, for those who haven't tried it, there is NO wood removed in the process.  Various shaped chisels are pushed into the wood in the design selected, then the silver ribbon is pushed into the slot.  To keep it in there, the design area is then wetted, causing the little slit to swell up tight around the ribbon.  It is "locked-in" by drawing the silver ribbon between two files, causing minute grooves to be formed.

Jim's machines would, no doubt, be capable of making intricate patterns, but they operate by removing wood, which would negate the swelling-up part.  Perhaps super glue could hold the ribbon in the groove?

[oldtravler61]

  Craig every CBC machine I have been around had a spray head for removing chips from the cutting tool. That part could be an air powered or by liquid.
Now getting the wire later in properly might be a trick. But I'm quite sure Jim will come up with something. If he hasn't already.

[Eric Krewson]

I went to a small art center years ago (when I shot a TC) that was having an "Arms Through the Ages" show, this was my first contact with historically correct rifles and pistols. One exhibiter had a Jacob Young rifle, not just any rifle but one of the top of the line rifles that had been made for a DR in Nashville.

Not having ever seen one I assumed rifles made 200 years ago must be crude because they were hand made with simple tools, boy was I wrong. The exhibitor was a fine man, once he saw my interest let me hold, shoulder and examine this rifle, the workmanship was as close to perfect as could be. Seeing this fine rifle up close played a part in my transitioning from factory made guns to making my own rifles and fowlers.

Perhaps the man who was so kind to me and generous with his time is reading this, I hope so, it was long ago and I don't remember his name.

[Jim Kibler]

I don't recall ever seeing it asked...so I will.

Any thoughts on a Lehigh down the pike? If we're dreaming, a late Berks (Haga style gun) would be cooler than cool, but Berks guns never get the love. lol

Yes, a Lehigh is a definite.  This style will work well for incised carving. 

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things.    However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!.  Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins?  Which time period and school?     I don't see anything in Kindig and  Google produced a few pics but not any real background.

I'm not a builder, but wish I were.  I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.

Thanks

I believe the term "Woodsrunner" was coined by Earl Lanning.  I'm pretty sure he owned this rifle for a number of years.  As far as where and when it was built, as far as I know there are no definitive answers.  I know Wallace believes strongly that it was a valley of Virginia rifle.  It has been a LONG time since I looked at his information regarding this attribution / belief, so I had better refresh myself before I comment.  There is a Muzzleblast article where he discusses this rifle extensively.  Others have suggested this may be a Berks county rifle.  I believe Wallace puts the rifle from the 1760's, but some others have suggested it might be into the 1770's.

To the rifle itself...  I find it the be pretty amazing.  The most notable feature is the strong trade gun / fowling piece influence.  The butstock profile screams this to me.  The high breech, the heavy taper in both the wrist and the forestock, the diminutive cheekpiece,  and even the English lock add to this appearance.  It has a very wide (approximately 2.125") buttplate and the buttstock has an "inflated" appearance.  The barrel is pretty heavily "swamped" which adds to the fowling piece feeling.  The box cavity is unique in that it is just rounded in cross section and doesn't have any conventional dovetails to retain the box lid.  As the name suggests, the rifle handles amazingly well and shoulders great.  It would be a real pleasure to hunt with.

I have built a "bench copy" of this original rifle; however, the kit will not be an exact copy of the original.  As mentioned, I've modified the architecture slightly.  It would be hard to explain here, but I think it will be a little more appealing to the typical consumers.  My barrel will be just under 40" long and be downsized a touch.  The buttplate will be slightly narrower as well.  You could say my version might be a little later than the original being discussed.  These changes were made to lighten the rifle and make it even better handling as weight is a huge concern to many today.  I expect my version to weigh 7.5 - 8 pounds.

As mentioned, I'll try to show some pictures or a video of the model we've created for this rifle. 

All the best,
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

  why another rifle before the fowler?? i need you fowler Jim. i am getting older not younger! i need it now 

This rifle hasn't taken as much to get developed as the fowler will.  It's kind of hard to go into all the details, but the bottom line is that this has been easier and quicker to get to market.  Also there seems to be a big demand for a light, shorter barreled, larger caliber rifle. 

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things.    However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!.  Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins?  Which time period and school?     I don't see anything in Kindig and  Google produced a few pics but not any real background.

I'm not a builder, but wish I were.  I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.

Thanks

I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
    But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
   Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
   I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.
     There was a Fine English Fowler that was made my Jim in the article as well, it has the finest architecture I have seen in a Fowler! It has the most tasteful wire inlays I have ever seen, and trimmed in Stirling silver. If Jim could offer us a base version of this Fowler, just feature the architecture but offer more "workman grade" furniture would be amazing, I can not find a "fine english Fowler" kit Anywhere. If it where to be offered with German Silver furniture or Stirling Silver furniture upgrades? All the better!

   I have also been thinking about what Jim told us of the new 5 axis machine being capable of doing decorative carving on his stocks....I am wondering out loud if the machine might also be able to produce cuts that could allow the customer to do wire inlay as an optional upgrade? If we are dreaming maybe "Level 1" the 5 axis just draws a very precise pattern on the stock. "Level 2" upgrade the 5 axis actually "stabs in" the cut and the customer can install the wire. For this to happen the 5 axis machine would need the capability of the spindle to be "indexed". A very rigid cutter made and only the very tip thinned down to knife edge thickness. If it where a straight chisel point maybe only .040 to .062 long the "indexing spindle" could "stab in" pretty sharp curves. I do not know if the market is ready for this, but I think the technology in CNC equipment currently exists to make it happen.

  If just the base "Fine English Fowler" where to happen, I would be among the first in line to open my wallet.

I've thought about the same thing regarding wire inlay work.  Like you said, the groove could be cut with a small chisel plunged into the stock with the aid of the 5 axis motion and spindle orientation.  Programing would be problamatic, however.  There are also other difficulties...  With good wire inlay, all the grooves are not cut at the same time.  It's typical to cut a groove, install the wire and then cut more grooves.  Installing the wire provides support for subsequent cuts and helps prevent break out.  Also as the wood is just compressed, I think it would swell shut if there was any passing of time before wire was installed.  You never know, though....

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

As to a fowling piece / trade gun, one of our goals is to make a kit that is highly representative of original work.  If you have studied and handled very many original guns you will likely come to the conclusion that most if not all currently offered today miss the mark in a number of areas.  A couple of the most glaring is the forestock (web) thickness and the barrel weight.  Eric Von Ashwege has been helping me with this project and we have three original high end trade guns to guide the development process.  Though not as far along as the rifle discussed, it's coming along well.

Thanks again for all the encouragement and kind words.

A final note...  We have taken a handful of orders for the "Woodsrunner" rifle kit, so you can do this if you would like, but we won't take any deposit and you have to commit to not hounding me if it isn't done as soon as you think it should be

Thanks,
Jim

[Frank]

  why another rifle before the fowler?? i need you fowler Jim. i am getting older not younger! i need it now 

This rifle hasn't taken as much to get developed as the fowler will.  It's kind of hard to go into all the details, but the bottom line is that this has been easier and quicker to get to market.  Also there seems to be a big demand for a light, shorter barreled, larger caliber rifle. 

Thanks,
Jim

Absolutely Jim, as well as a shorter length of pull. I am definitely buying one in 45 caliber and either get a 54 caliber  barrel or just buy a second one in 54.

[Steve_Rose]

Jim,

While we are throwing out our wish lists I've long thought that the option of steel furniture for your Colonial rifle would pair well with a walnut stock in making a nice “Woodbury School” rifle.   

[msquared]

I believe the term "Woodsrunner" was coined by Earl Lanning.  I'm pretty sure he owned this rifle for a number of years.  As far as where and when it was built, as far as I know there are no definitive answers.  I know Wallace believes strongly that it was a valley of Virginia rifle.  It has been a LONG time since I looked at his information regarding this attribution / belief, so I had better refresh myself before I comment.  There is a Muzzleblast article where he discusses this rifle extensively.  Others have suggested this may be a Berks county rifle.  I believe Wallace puts the rifle from the 1760's, but some others have suggested it might be into the 1770's.

To the rifle itself...  I find it the be pretty amazing.  The most notable feature is the strong trade gun / fowling piece influence.  The butstock profile screams this to me.  The high breech, the heavy taper in both the wrist and the forestock, the diminutive cheekpiece,  and even the English lock add to this appearance.  It has a very wide (approximately 2.125") buttplate and the buttstock has an "inflated" appearance.  The barrel is pretty heavily "swamped" which adds to the fowling piece feeling.  The box cavity is unique in that it is just rounded in cross section and doesn't have any conventional dovetails to retain the box lid.  As the name suggests, the rifle handles amazingly well and shoulders great.  It would be a real pleasure to hunt with.

I have built a "bench copy" of this original rifle; however, the kit will not be an exact copy of the original.  As mentioned, I've modified the architecture slightly.  It would be hard to explain here, but I think it will be a little more appealing to the typical consumers.  My barrel will be just under 40" long and be downsized a touch.  The buttplate will be slightly narrower as well.  You could say my version might be a little later than the original being discussed.  These changes were made to lighten the rifle and make it even better handling as weight is a huge concern to many today.  I expect my version to weigh 7.5 - 8 pounds.

As mentioned, I'll try to show some pictures or a video of the model we've created for this rifle. 

All the best,
Jim

Jim,

Thanks so much for your insights into both the original Woodsrunner and your upcoming new kit.  You are extremely helpful!

Being less than an hour away, my only wish is that there was a showroom where finished rifles could be handled to see how they feel and handle before ordering.  But, as you addressed in a video, I understand what a distraction and time suck that would be.  It's impressive to watch your continuing industry and innovations.

Best wishes,

Miles

[tddeangelo]

The Woodsrunner sounds great, and a Lehigh will be pretty cool! Looking forward to seeing what comes out!

I'd never heard the possibility the Woodsrunner was from Berks....now I gotta start doing some digging on that rifle. I realize it's all a big question mark, but Berks stuff gets my attention quick. Being born, raised, and living in Berks County has a lot to do with that.

[msquared]

I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
    But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
   Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
   I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.

The article is linked on Jim's website:

http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/uploads/1/0/3/4/10348480/hankla_kibler_jf14_reduced.pdf

[Hunterdude]

Wow!.... The information Mr. Kibler shared with us in this thread today is about as big as any before, I have all ready seen this thread referenced by those who write or make videos about "what's new in muzzleloading" elsewhere on the web.
     I feel proud to have supported Kibler Longrifle's in my own small way by my current standing "payed" SMR kit order, and look forward to being a "repeat offender" by ordering one of the "new" kits in 2022 if given the opportunity.
    This feels like an exciting time to be in the muzzloading sport to me!

[Jimclassjr]

I’ve reread these posts but can some kind soul clarify for me please...
The Woodsrunner project is a rifled barrel flintlock? Correct?
The Fowling piece/ trade gun that will follow, be later, is this a smooth bore design?
Thank you guys 😁

[smart dog]

"It's  probably just me but I have always found the architecture on these guns unattractive. They look like the guy who built them was a little confused as to what the end result should be."

Hi,
Yeah, me too Mike, and they did not know how to pull off either the fowlers or rifles. However, I have faith that Jim will edit out the awkward idiosyncracies and produce a really nice looking version.

dave

[bnewberry]

I’ve reread these posts but can some kind soul clarify for me please...
The Woodsrunner project is a rifled barrel flintlock? Correct?
The Fowling piece/ trade gun that will follow, be later, is this a smooth bore design?
Thank you guys 😁

Correct on both.