Kibler Longrifles going to the Next level!

[Lone Wolf]

I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.

[Panzerschwein]

I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.

I am pretty sure Jim offers some smoothbore options, at least in the larger calibers?

[Tim Crosby]

I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.

 Did you see this?

   https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69521.msg701597#msg701597

[jaeren]

https://kiblerslongrifles.com/products/50-caliber-colonial-american-longrifle-kit-sliding-box-down-payment?variant=32246325772406

I think the smooth bore he's talking about is the ones in his colonial rifle listed on Jim's site.

Ed

[David Rase]

I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.

No need to wish or wait for that smoothbore, Jim Chambers PA fowler is one of the best feeling and handling fowler kits out there.
David

[David Rase]

If memory serves me right, there were several other husband and wife teams that preceded the Kiblers that revolutionized our hobby.  Bud  and Dottie Siler and Jm and Karen Chambers come to mind.  Nothing new here, let's move on.

Wow, didn’t mean to raise your ire, David. A bit ill tempered of a comment.

I plead the 1st. He deserves praise for making not only an excellent quality kit, but one very easy for the average person to assemble a fantastic rifle out of and all for a stellar price with quick delivery. It opens up the sometimes daunting hobby of rifle building to an exceptionally wide audience, evident in Jim’s success. Of course the others that came before him are to be lauded, too.

Pease don’t take my comment as “ill tempered”.  I have been involved in building these guns since 1975 when I acquired my first T/C Hawken kit from the Patch and Ball gun shop on El Cajon Blvd. in San Diego, Ca.  while serving in the US Navy.  I remember the exact time and place because this was one of those significant events in my lifetime.  T/C’s were revolutionary at the time and introduced many people into the sport/hobby of muzzleloading due to the kit being a precarved kit that could be assembled and finished with basic tools like a screwdriver, drill and sandpaper. 
When either finding an original lock or building one from scratch was a necessity for scratch building or restoring one of these old rifles to shooting condition, along came Bud and Dottie Siler who stated manufacturing a reasonably priced lock for the masses thus allowing just about anybody access to a high quality lock ant an affordable price. 
Next, Jim and Karen Chambers came along and developed some of the most historically correct kits on the market thus giving us options to upgrade from a CVA or T/C rifle.  This was another watershed moment in the evolvement of the muzzleloading rifle as it pertains to the hobbyist or enthusiast. 
We now have Jim and Kathern Kibler who have developed the use of  ultra precision CNC and have taken our hobby to the next level, currently offering two kits, with more in the works that are both historically accurate, easy to assemble and affordable.
Finally, addressing my statement, “nothing new here, let's move on” was directed at the continuing development and process improvements of manufacturing techniques in the industrial world, not at the technology. 
David

[Frank]

Wow David, the Patch and Ball gun shop is a blast from the past. Got my first muzzleloader there as well. A Thompson Center 50 cal Hawken Kit in 1975 as well. Loved talking to Bill Bracken. I would spend an hour or so there every week and talking to Bill over a cup of coffee. I knew absolutely nothing about black powder when I first went there and Bill was a wealth of knowledge. The San Diego muzzleloaders held a monthly shoot up in Escondido. Great fun. Navy vet as well.

[Daryl]

You guys are late starters, I see.  Just kidding.  Taylor started in about 1970 and I in 72 or very early 73. We both bought finished TC's.
Bear hunt Nass Valley, B.C. 3 young Mounties. Now, not so young. Too bad about the binocs - lol.

[tecum-tha]

I think there were others like GRRW (Doc White), Sharon and others who produced pretty historical accurate and high quality gun kits.
The reasons these companies went under was not the quality of their guns or kits. They simply were a victim of the stagflation and also to a degree because they were not really business savy. They took on way too much debt and then went bust. The loss of knowledge was imho quite intense before the flintlock longrifle became more fashionable.
And in addition, the kit instructions were horrendous. Two pages of instructions turned most guns into fine shooters but in a workmanship disaster.
Now, you occasionally see these guns for sale and unless the bore is rusted, this is still a very high-quality gun. It is often cheaper to restock them instead of buying a new parts kit.
I always like the murals at the mess hall in Friendship, where you see orange leather clad trappers flinging hawks and shooting mostly Hawken rifles (the majority probably TC and CVA back then). The now Spanish Investarm outfit still produces the remnants of one of these rifles and is very popular in Europe for all blackpowder shooting disciplines and delivers excellent results.

 

[Frank]

GRRW and Sharon were top of the line back then, but were a little out of my price range on a Navy salary. I would have loved a GRRW fullstock Leman.

[tecum-tha]

I have no idea about the price of a CVA or TC back then in comparison to a GRRW or Sharon, especially the kits.
Can find the prices of the GRRW and the Sharon, but no idea about CVA or TC.
I always hear people complaining in Archery that this and that bow was $70 in 1969 and is now $799.
Using the inflation calculator, it almost always comes in right on the money for what it costs now.... Another niche industry which is manual labor intensive, but not as much as a ML gun.

[David Rase]

GRRW and Sharon were top of the line back then, but were a little out of my price range on a Navy salary. I would have loved a GRRW fullstock Leman.

In 1978 or there bout's,  Mike McCormick at Cache La Poudre Rifleworks in Ft. Collins, Co. had a GRRW full stock Leman Indian rifle kit in his shop.  I drooled over that rifle for months on end.   It was $250.00 which was out of my price range at the time as well.
David

[Dwshotwell]

I couldn’t help it so I did the math. $70 inflating to $795 from 1969 to present is 4.69% / year. The average rate of general inflation over the same period was 3.92%. So actually that’s pretty darn close and not bad when you consider that making archery equipment (or muzzleloader equipment) is so labor intensive when the cost of other things over that period has dropped due to automation.

The observation that, though the increase seems huge, it is pretty close to the calculator numbers, is spot on. The big problem is you don’t experience it as an average… the price of something doesn’t move for several years and then takes a big jump.

[Lone Wolf]

I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.

 Did you see this?

   https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69521.msg701597#msg701597

I wonder if that is one or the other?

[Lone Wolf]

I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.

No need to wish or wait for that smoothbore, Jim Chambers PA fowler is one of the best feeling and handling fowler kits out there.
David

I'm building a Chambers English fowler now. I almost went with the PA Fowler but wanted to do something different from maple.

[bob in the woods]

I had a Chambers Penn fowler in .54 smoothbore and a cherry stock. The barrel was sized appropriately ie the dimensions were smaller than my 20 bore.  Like a fool, I sold it to a friend who really really wanted it . 

[JTR]

Wow David, the Patch and Ball gun shop is a blast from the past. Got my first muzzleloader there as well.

Small world! I bought my Sharon Hawken from Patch and Ball! Still have it, cockeyed lock position and all. And agreed, Bill was a fountain of info for me as well!
I think the 805 freeway runs through that area now.....

[David Rase]

Wow David, the Patch and Ball gun shop is a blast from the past. Got my first muzzleloader there as well.

Small world! I bought my Sharon Hawken from Patch and Ball! Still have it, cockeyed lock position and all. And agreed, Bill was a fountain of info for me as well!
I think the 805 freeway runs through that area now.....

Pretty amazing that 3 of us on this forum bought guns from that shop.  It is a small world.  I used to fly to San Diego once every couple of years.  Worked and stayed on Coronado Island for the DOD.  One of my favorite places to visit.  I loved all the restaurants, good food at reasonable prices.
David 

[duca]

You guys are late starters, I see.  Just kidding.  Taylor started in about 1970 and I in 72 or very early 73. We both bought finished TC's.
Bear hunt Nass Valley, B.C. 3 young Mounties. Now, not so young. Too bad about the binocs - lol.

WOW that’s Awesome Daryl… wish I had pictures of me and my Friend PJ William back in the late 70’s - early 80’s

Anthony

[Eric Krewson]

Our supplier back in the mid 70s was a place called Ron Shirk's Shooters Supply, a TC Renegade cost $90 in 1975 which would be $470 in today's money.

[Daveboone]

For many years I had wanted an authentic long rifle, but couldnt come close to the price. I was delighted to discover Kiblers kits, and recently completed my Colonial in .58 cal. Still waiting for range time . I went the .58 to lighten the rifle and because I already had two .54 Hawken style, and a .50 t/c. I couldnt be more pleased with the idea of the Woods Runner rifle, in that it will come in a .45 offering, and still be relatively light and easy handling. The only problem now, is which centerfires to I sell to pay for it?

[duca]

Awesome! Enjoy Dave

Anthony

[Dphariss]

First ML got it back about 1966. 32 cal Douglas barrel unknown maker.

[Craig Wilcox]

All these newcomers!  I got my first ML in 1960, when I was 15.  Got to getting into mischief, so Dad introduced me to a friend of his that was a History prof at U Maryland.  He was a big Civil War buff, and had formed a shooting team for the reenactors and target shooters.
For a $20 bill, I became the proud owner of an 1861 .58 cal Springfield musket.  We were in the Washington DC area, and travelled around to about all the military bases in the area, shooting at the 100-yard targets.  These were mainly 24 clay pigeons taped to a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood - first 8-man team to bust all their targets were winners!
From time to time we did have other targets - the one I recall most was a 1/4 stick of dynamite with a blasting cap on top.  That one was individual shooting, and I cannot recall me ever being the one to hit the target.
We all wore period clothing, most were original, 100-year old stuff.
Alas, Dad got out of the Navy, and took a job down in Florida, where there seemed to be NO ML guys at all.  Then, of course, I went into the Navy as well, and Vietnam started while I was in boot at San Diego.