General discussion > Black Powder Shooting
Scheutzen powder velocities
JBJ:
Bill (Mad Monk)
Would you mind terribly touching on the topic of basic density (specific gravity?) of the powder of the different brands and how that impacts velocity? My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that Swiss is is denser than GOEX, for instance, and loading on a volume basis is actually increasing the amount (weight) of powder as compared to the same volume of GOEX. Just for giggles - a thimble full of Swiss will actually weigh more than a thimble full of GOEX. Thanks, Bill.
J.B.
doulos:
--- Quote from: Mad Monk on January 10, 2022, 10:02:29 PM ---to start on this subject.
The first shipment of the Schuetzen powder arrived here on March 25, 2003.
Test Rifle: .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle, percussion ignition.
Shooting 80 grain volume charges.
3F powders.
1860 fps Swiss.
1622 fps Schuetzen
1536 fps GOEX Nov 13, 2001 packing date.
1426 fps GOEX Nov 14, 2001 packing date.
1490 fps GOEX Aug 01,2002 packing date.
1663 fps GOEX Sept 10, 2002 packing date.
2F powders.
1658 Swiss
1423 Schuetzen
1411 GOEX Feb 6, 2002 packing date
1485 GOEX Sept 16, 2002 packing date
1511 GOEX Oct 7, 2002
The wide variation in the GOEX velocities was due to their inability to find a god source of charcoal for the production at the Minden Plant. Development of the Schuetzen powder was started in 2002 and the goal was to make it equal in velocity to GOEX production. By late 2002 GOEX was finally able to locate and purchase a good source of charcoal and that really bumped up their velocities. Later on Schuetzen played with their charcoal and bumped their velocities up. But over the years GOEX had problems at both Moosic and Minden with some pretty wide differences in lot to lot differences in velocities. Just one of the joys of having to run a black powder plant when you must buy all of your ingredients from companies who could care less about your quality needs versus their normal or average customer.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying that the charcoal source is the one main factor for velocity?
Mad Monk:
--- Quote from: doulos on January 11, 2022, 01:20:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mad Monk on January 10, 2022, 10:02:29 PM ---to start on this subject.
The first shipment of the Schuetzen powder arrived here on March 25, 2003.
Test Rifle: .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle, percussion ignition.
Shooting 80 grain volume charges.
3F powders.
1860 fps Swiss.
1622 fps Schuetzen
1536 fps GOEX Nov 13, 2001 packing date.
1426 fps GOEX Nov 14, 2001 packing date.
1490 fps GOEX Aug 01,2002 packing date.
1663 fps GOEX Sept 10, 2002 packing date.
2F powders.
1658 Swiss
1423 Schuetzen
1411 GOEX Feb 6, 2002 packing date
1485 GOEX Sept 16, 2002 packing date
1511 GOEX Oct 7, 2002
The wide variation in the GOEX velocities was due to their inability to find a god source of charcoal for the production at the Minden Plant. Development of the Schuetzen powder was started in 2002 and the goal was to make it equal in velocity to GOEX production. By late 2002 GOEX was finally able to locate and purchase a good source of charcoal and that really bumped up their velocities. Later on Schuetzen played with their charcoal and bumped their velocities up. But over the years GOEX had problems at both Moosic and Minden with some pretty wide differences in lot to lot differences in velocities. Just one of the joys of having to run a black powder plant when you must buy all of your ingredients from companies who could care less about your quality needs versus their normal or average customer.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying that the charcoal source is the one main factor for velocity?
--- End quote ---
Absolutely! Main factor in the chemical rate of burn in a black powder irrespective of powder grain size is the type of wood used to make the charcoal and the fixed carbon of the charcoal after charring. Then the particle size of the charcoal in the finished powder becomes a major factor as long as the type of wood used and the fixed carbon meet the requirements for that type of powder being made. I.e. sporting, rifle or musket type powders. In these powders you are grinding the charcoal down into a range of roughly 1 micron to 50 microns in size. Smaller generally means faster burning if the charcoal is actually able to burn that fast.
Mad Monk:
--- Quote from: JBJ on January 11, 2022, 12:54:25 AM ---Bill (Mad Monk)
Would you mind terribly touching on the topic of basic density (specific gravity?) of the powder of the different brands and how that impacts velocity? My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that Swiss is is denser than GOEX, for instance, and loading on a volume basis is actually increasing the amount (weight) of powder as compared to the same volume of GOEX. Just for giggles - a thimble full of Swiss will actually weigh more than a thimble full of GOEX. Thanks, Bill.
J.B.
--- End quote ---
With black powder you are dealing with two means of looking at powder density. After they press the powder into those large slabs that look like slate tablets they measure density by Sp.Gr. The target density is usually 1.75 Sp.Gr.
Now once you run the powder through the corning mill into grains you cannot use the specific gravity test. And after corning the polishing of the grains in the large rotating barrels will increase the density a bit. Mainly the surfaces of the grains and the near surface powder in the grain.
Fr that work I used my now 50 year old adjustable Treso adjustable powder measure set at 100 grains. When I checked that measure in the lab I found that at the 100 grain setting it held EXACTLY 100 grains of water. Then I had to do a bunch of calculating to find the exact volume of the measure at the 100 setting. The data from this test is shown g/cc. This test is generally called "bulking density" or "apparent density". No different than what I did daily in the PVC resin lab I worked in. This test is fun. You pour the powder into a cylinder through a funnel. But then to get the accurate figure you gently tap the cylinder and watch how much the contents settle. Then top it off with more powder and weight the content of the cylinder on a gram scale. This then gave me the bulking density of the powder.
When I ran a bunch of 1800s powder through this test they would almost invariably come out at 1.05 to 1.08 g/cc. When GOEX was running the Moosic plant there 2f and 3f powder usually came out at 0.95 to 1.00 g/cc.
Going back to my work on developing the Schuetzen powder. The initial run by WANO in Germany gave me 0.99 g/cc for their 2F and 0.98 g/cc for the 3F. I told them that was a bit low and then needed to run the grained powder in the polishing barrels to get that a bit higher. So in full scale production they brought that up to 1.06 g/cc for the 2F and 1.05 g/cc for the 3F powder.
If the powder maker does not run the powders in the polishing barrel long enough the grains remain rather sharp edged and rough surfaced. Running it to the idea g/cc result gives nice well round grains that are rather shiny and bright from the extra polishing. This can sometimes have an effect on accuracy in the gun.
I should point out that this thing about settling the powder in a cylinder comes in with the BP cartridge crowd and why they use drop tubes of specific length. That gives them the best uniformity in loading density in the cartridges. Which comes in with shot to shot velocity differences.
Daryl:
In my tests, I found that a volume measure holding 78gr. of GOEX 3F, held exactly 85gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F - using a 30" drop tube with no tapping.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version