Scheutzen powder velocities

[doulos]

The available reviews I have read on this powder that were not many years old the velocities seem very slow. I know everything seems slow compared to Swiss. But I have seen one that puts this much slower than Goex. Over 100fps second slower than the same charge of Goex 2f. And 271 fps slower than the same charge as Swiss.
Has anyone else documented that?
What properties of blackpowder or its manufacturing process contributes to these velocity differences?

[OldMtnMan]

Yes, it is a bit slower than Goex. I don't consider 100fps that much. You'll never notice it. The problem is we don't have an option anymore with Goex being sold and covid killing supplies anyway.

Monk will be better at explaining why some powder have more power. I'm sure he'll see this thread.

Swiss will always be the best premium powder but you'll pay much more too. I used to use just Swiss but it was only $15lb then too. Todays prices are nuts.

[Dutch Blacky]

There is a saying, that only for swiss blackpowder alder buckthorn charcoal is used (Powderwood = Rhamnus frangula). So one gets a quick burning black powder which has more power than the Explosia BP (Schützen?, Vesuvit,  Made in the Czech Republic, https://explosia.cz/en/products-2/explosives/black-powder/)

Compared to Swiss no 2, you will need 33% percent more Vesuvit Black Powder.

[Mad Monk]

to start on this subject.

The first shipment of the Schuetzen powder arrived here on March 25, 2003.
Test Rifle: .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle, percussion ignition.
Shooting 80 grain volume charges.

3F powders.

1860 fps Swiss.
1622 fps Schuetzen

1536 fps GOEX Nov  13, 2001 packing date.
1426 fps GOEX Nov  14, 2001 packing date.
1490 fps GOEX Aug   01,2002  packing date.
1663 fps GOEX Sept  10, 2002 packing date.


2F powders.

1658 Swiss
1423 Schuetzen

1411 GOEX Feb 6, 2002  packing date
1485 GOEX Sept 16, 2002 packing date
1511 GOEX Oct 7, 2002

The wide variation in the GOEX velocities was due to their inability to find a god source of charcoal for the production at the Minden Plant.  Development of the Schuetzen powder was started in 2002 and the goal was to make it equal in velocity to GOEX production.  By late 2002 GOEX was finally able to locate and purchase a good source of charcoal and that really bumped up their velocities.  Later on Schuetzen played with their charcoal and bumped their velocities up.  But over the years GOEX had problems at both Moosic and Minden with some pretty wide differences in lot to lot differences in velocities.  Just one of the joys of having to run a black powder plant when you must buy all of your ingredients from companies who could care less about your quality needs versus their normal or average customer.

[Mad Monk]

I forgot to mention that all of the 3F powders were shot on one day and then the seconds day all of he 2f powders.  That way there was no difference in how differences in air temperature would alter the velocities.  The idea being to reduce any variables that would alter the resulting data.
Also forgot to mention using .490 balls with .020 #4 cotton drill with the Lestom Labs produced Lehigh Valley lube and not the Ox-Yoke production version.

[JBJ]

Bill (Mad Monk)
Would you mind terribly touching on the topic of basic density (specific gravity?) of the powder of the different brands and how that impacts velocity? My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that Swiss is is denser than GOEX, for instance, and loading on a volume basis is actually increasing the amount (weight) of powder as compared to the same volume of GOEX. Just for giggles - a thimble full of Swiss will actually weigh more than a thimble full of GOEX. Thanks, Bill.
J.B.

[doulos]

to start on this subject.

The first shipment of the Schuetzen powder arrived here on March 25, 2003.
Test Rifle: .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle, percussion ignition.
Shooting 80 grain volume charges.

3F powders.

1860 fps Swiss.
1622 fps Schuetzen

1536 fps GOEX Nov  13, 2001 packing date.
1426 fps GOEX Nov  14, 2001 packing date.
1490 fps GOEX Aug   01,2002  packing date.
1663 fps GOEX Sept  10, 2002 packing date.


2F powders.

1658 Swiss
1423 Schuetzen

1411 GOEX Feb 6, 2002  packing date
1485 GOEX Sept 16, 2002 packing date
1511 GOEX Oct 7, 2002

The wide variation in the GOEX velocities was due to their inability to find a god source of charcoal for the production at the Minden Plant.  Development of the Schuetzen powder was started in 2002 and the goal was to make it equal in velocity to GOEX production.  By late 2002 GOEX was finally able to locate and purchase a good source of charcoal and that really bumped up their velocities.  Later on Schuetzen played with their charcoal and bumped their velocities up.  But over the years GOEX had problems at both Moosic and Minden with some pretty wide differences in lot to lot differences in velocities.  Just one of the joys of having to run a black powder plant when you must buy all of your ingredients from companies who could care less about your quality needs versus their normal or average customer.

Are you saying that the charcoal source is the one main factor for velocity?

[Mad Monk]

to start on this subject.

The first shipment of the Schuetzen powder arrived here on March 25, 2003.
Test Rifle: .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle, percussion ignition.
Shooting 80 grain volume charges.

3F powders.

1860 fps Swiss.
1622 fps Schuetzen

1536 fps GOEX Nov  13, 2001 packing date.
1426 fps GOEX Nov  14, 2001 packing date.
1490 fps GOEX Aug   01,2002  packing date.
1663 fps GOEX Sept  10, 2002 packing date.


2F powders.

1658 Swiss
1423 Schuetzen

1411 GOEX Feb 6, 2002  packing date
1485 GOEX Sept 16, 2002 packing date
1511 GOEX Oct 7, 2002

The wide variation in the GOEX velocities was due to their inability to find a god source of charcoal for the production at the Minden Plant.  Development of the Schuetzen powder was started in 2002 and the goal was to make it equal in velocity to GOEX production.  By late 2002 GOEX was finally able to locate and purchase a good source of charcoal and that really bumped up their velocities.  Later on Schuetzen played with their charcoal and bumped their velocities up.  But over the years GOEX had problems at both Moosic and Minden with some pretty wide differences in lot to lot differences in velocities.  Just one of the joys of having to run a black powder plant when you must buy all of your ingredients from companies who could care less about your quality needs versus their normal or average customer.

Are you saying that the charcoal source is the one main factor for velocity?

Absolutely!  Main factor in the chemical rate of burn in a black powder irrespective of powder grain size is the type of wood used to make the charcoal and the fixed carbon of the charcoal after charring.  Then the particle size of the charcoal in the finished powder becomes a major factor as long as the type of wood used and the fixed carbon meet the requirements for that type of powder being made.  I.e. sporting, rifle or musket type powders.  In these powders you are grinding the charcoal down into a range of roughly 1 micron to 50 microns in size.  Smaller generally means faster burning if the charcoal is actually able to burn that fast.

[Mad Monk]

Bill (Mad Monk)
Would you mind terribly touching on the topic of basic density (specific gravity?) of the powder of the different brands and how that impacts velocity? My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that Swiss is is denser than GOEX, for instance, and loading on a volume basis is actually increasing the amount (weight) of powder as compared to the same volume of GOEX. Just for giggles - a thimble full of Swiss will actually weigh more than a thimble full of GOEX. Thanks, Bill.
J.B.

With black powder you are dealing with two means of looking at powder density.  After they press the powder into those large slabs that look like slate tablets they measure density by Sp.Gr. The target density is usually 1.75 Sp.Gr.

Now once you run the powder through the corning mill into grains you cannot use the specific gravity test.  And after corning the polishing of the grains in the large rotating barrels will increase the density a bit.  Mainly the surfaces of the grains and the near surface powder in the grain.

Fr that work I used my now 50 year old adjustable Treso adjustable powder measure set at 100 grains.  When I checked that measure in the lab I found that at the 100 grain setting it held EXACTLY 100 grains of water.  Then I had to do a bunch of calculating to find the exact volume of the measure at the 100 setting.  The data from this test is shown g/cc.  This test is generally called "bulking density" or "apparent density".  No different than what I did daily in the PVC resin lab I worked in.   This test is fun.  You pour the powder into a cylinder through a funnel.  But then to get the accurate figure you gently tap the cylinder and watch how much the contents settle.  Then top it off with more powder and weight the content of the cylinder on a gram scale.  This then gave me the bulking density of the powder.
When I ran a bunch of 1800s powder through this test they would almost invariably come out at 1.05 to 1.08 g/cc.  When GOEX was running the Moosic plant there 2f and 3f powder usually came out at 0.95 to 1.00 g/cc. 

Going back to my work on developing the Schuetzen powder.  The initial run by WANO in Germany gave me 0.99 g/cc for their 2F and 0.98 g/cc for the 3F.  I told them that was a bit low and then needed to run the grained powder in the polishing barrels to get that a bit higher.  So in full scale production they brought that up to 1.06 g/cc for the 2F and 1.05 g/cc for the 3F powder.

If the powder maker does not run the powders in the polishing barrel long enough the grains remain rather sharp edged and rough surfaced.  Running it to the idea g/cc result gives nice well round grains that are rather shiny and bright from the extra polishing.  This can sometimes have an effect on accuracy in the gun. 

I should point out that this thing about settling the powder in a cylinder comes in with the BP cartridge crowd and why they use drop tubes of specific length.  That gives them the best uniformity in loading density in the cartridges.  Which comes in with shot to shot velocity differences.

[Daryl]

In my tests, I found that a volume measure holding 78gr. of GOEX 3F, held exactly 85gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F - using a 30" drop tube with no tapping.

[Mad Monk]

The available reviews I have read on this powder that were not many years old the velocities seem very slow. I know everything seems slow compared to Swiss. But I have seen one that puts this much slower than Goex. Over 100fps second slower than the same charge of Goex 2f. And 271 fps slower than the same charge as Swiss.
Has anyone else documented that?
What properties of blackpowder or its manufacturing process contributes to these velocity differences?

Getting back to this topic.

When black powder plants depend on other companies or their raw materials with certain quality tandards (properties) they are often in a psition of having make due with what they are supplied.  Here is one again on the charcoal.

When du Pont sold the Moosic PA plant to Gearhart-Owens (eventually GOEX as we know it)  the old Dupont charcoal supplier in North Central PA had ceased operations.  So Gearhart-Owens had to search for a new source for charcoal.  Their only recourse was the Roseville Charcoal Company in Ohio.  Roseville ran a small wood charring operation in West Virginia charring mainly maple wood that they did not debark before charring.  Tree bark carries a lot of minerals.  Far more minerals than would be found in heart wood.  Some lots of Roseville charcoal would contain 5% "ash".  Ash being the wood minerals. Some charcoal lots were as high as 15% ash (minerals).  But the charcoal was used at 15 parts in the formulation.  But this meant that the actual amount of carbon for combustion in the powder.  So this would in turn create a difference in the amount of gases produced by the combustion of the powder which would be reflected by variations in muzzle velocities.

Then when GOEX closed the Moosic operation Roseville Charcoal ceased operations.  GOEX wanted them to continue charring operations until they got Minden up and running but Roseville had run it's course.    Their charring kiln vented directly to the atmosphere which was being questioned by the West VA DER.   The maple wodd would be about 8 to 10% lignin which the trees produce as a binder in the wood.  It is a phenolic structured chemical.  And burning the wood simply created other phenolic structured chemicals that are carcinogenic.  So for every 100 pounds of wood the kiln was kicking 8 to 10 pounds of cancer causing chemicals to the atmosphere.  They were in effect forced to cease operations.   

[doulos]

Mad Monk
Thank you so much for your answers. And If I could bother you again.
It would seem  the future of charcoal production would also be under fire not just in the USA but abroad. Other countries also regulate emissions (except China) from manufacturing processes. Do the makers of Swiss or Schuetzen have a different procedure for charcoal manufacturing that would not be under such scrutiny from environmental government agencies? I ask  with concern for the future of blackpowder in mind.

[Mad Monk]

Mad Monk
Thank you so much for your answers. And If I could bother you again.
It would seem  the future of charcoal production would also be under fire not just in the USA but abroad. Other countries also regulate emissions (except China) from manufacturing processes. Do the makers of Swiss or Schuetzen have a different procedure for charcoal manufacturing that would not be under such scrutiny from environmental government agencies? I ask  with concern for the future of blackpowder in mind.

In the case of the Swiss they char their buckthorn alder wood in a cylinder as it had been done for at least 100 years.  However!!!!!  They do not let the temperature of the wood in the charring cylinder go above about 320 degrees during the charring process.  So all of the nasty creosote stays in the charcoal in the cylinder.  If they were to allow the wood temperature to go above 350 it would suddenly all be blown out the vent in the end of the cylinder.  That gives a charcoal with about 8 to 10% "oil of creosote" which is the secret to the Swiss powder having a "moist burn".  This moist burning property was widely known in European and English sporting powders of the 1800s and found in two or 3 U.S. made powders.   Some modern charcoal makers have gone over to catalytic converters on the exhaust side of their kilns or retorts.  You see this catalytic converter thing being mandated on wood stoves out in our western states.  But just blowing a bunch of carcinogenic chemicals into the atmosphere is getting to be a no no unless you are running a big oil refinery along the Gulf Coast.

[Dutch Blacky]

Thank you a lot for your clear and helpful explanations @Mad Monk.

Although there were some rumors that the formula of swiss blackpowder had been changed, and they do not use  no buckthorn alder charcoal any more, the company homepage of the "Poudrerie d'Aubonne SA" still has the information, that they still use only charcoal from  buckthorn alder. ( /https://www.sse-schweiz.com/produkte/schwarzpulver) "Jagdschiesspulver wird ausschliesslich aus Faulbaumholzkohle hergestellt." Faulbaum = buckthorn alder

[JBJ]

Bill,
Thanks for the great information! Also, thanks to Daryl for his comments re the weight of powder (GOEX vs Swiss) thrown at the same volume setting. In Daryl's case, setting the volume measure to throw a 78 gr. charge of GOEX resulted in 7 grains more of Swiss powder. One would expect that this difference alone would account for a higher velocity from the Swiss powder at the same volume setting used for the GOEX powder. I went back to your post re shooting the Lyman Trade rifle seeking the answer and,  if I read the post correctly, this is exactly what happened with your use of the 80 grain volume setting. This leads me to the question of how they compare on a weight for weight basis. I would guess that the spread in velocity would be less but probably not eliminated due to other factors involving raw materials and manufacturing protocols. Again, thanks sharing your knowledge that allows all of us to better understand this wonderful sport!
J.B.

[Mad Monk]

Bill,
Thanks for the great information! Also, thanks to Daryl for his comments re the weight of powder (GOEX vs Swiss) thrown at the same volume setting. In Daryl's case, setting the volume measure to throw a 78 gr. charge of GOEX resulted in 7 grains more of Swiss powder. One would expect that this difference alone would account for a higher velocity from the Swiss powder at the same volume setting used for the GOEX powder. I went back to your post re shooting the Lyman Trade rifle seeking the answer and,  if I read the post correctly, this is exactly what happened with your use of the 80 grain volume setting. This leads me to the question of how they compare on a weight for weight basis. I would guess that the spread in velocity would be less but probably not eliminated due to other factors involving raw materials and manufacturing protocols. Again, thanks sharing your knowledge that allows all of us to better understand this wonderful sport!
J.B.

On a weight for weight basis the Swiss would still come out a good bit faster.
You see me taking about musket, rifle and sporting powders.  Going back to the 1800s.  The U.S. black powder plants produced 3 different types of small arms black powder.  The slowest of the three was the musket powder.  Sold to the government fort use in the Civil War guns shooting the newly developed minnie. Straight 1F powder.  As the Civil War closed du Pont purchased every pound o the surplus 1F musket powder and sent it to the plant on the Brandywine where it was run through the corning mill to break it down into 2F and 3F grain sizes which was then sold back to the government for use in the .45-70 cartridge rifle coming into use.  When the government arsenals ran out of that reprocessed surplus powder du Pont simply sold them the rifle burn rate powder for se in the brass cartridges.

In the 3 powder types we now go to the "rifle" powder and this rifle type powder is the GOEX common small arms black powder as is the Schuetzen powder.   The rifle powder burns faster than the musket powder.  Burns at a bit higher temperature.  In a full closed bomb test the rifle type powder can generate a maximum temperature of about 1800 degrees.  The rifle type powder having been described as about 10% "stronger" than the musket type powder.

Then we go to the fast, hot burning sporting type powders.  And here we see a big deviation from what is oft described as the standard 75-15-10 ingredient ration in black powder.  In the case of a true sporting powder you would be looking at 78 parts of potassium nitrate with a reduction in the charcoal and sulfur.  The sporting powder in a full closed bomb test is able to produce a maximum gas temperature of 2,000 degrees and sometimes a little more.  With that formulation with a bit less charcoal you will see the powder produce a lesser volume of gases (carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide) but at a good deal higher gas temperature with a greater amount of gas expansion as a result of the higher combustion temperature.  The sporting type powders are noted for their best use with fairly light and easy to move projectiles in the bore.  The pressure rise and collapse in the bore is what makes them more effective in the small calibers.  A good sporting powder is at the least 10% "stronger" than a rifle type powder in in the 19th century sporting powders it was not unusual to see a 20% difference in "strength".

[Daryl]

In my testing of those 2 powder charges, 78gr. 3F GOEX vs. 85gr. 1 1/2F Swiss, the Swiss powder charge was only 40fps slower than the 3F charge.
I am certain Bill is correct, in that equal weight charges would show Swiss Powders of the same granulation to be considerably faster than GOEX, & it appears, Schutzen.

[AZshot]

All I know is I always shot Goex until recently, when I found a can of Schuetzen and have been shooting it in my .45 flintlock.  I'm not concerned with velocity, but am with fouling. Both seemed to foul pretty badly with how I load (I know part of the problem is my patch/ball combo).  I'm about to try some Swiss FFF next....will report on fouling impressions.

[Mad Monk]

All I know is I always shot Goex until recently, when I found a can of Schuetzen and have been shooting it in my .45 flintlock.  I'm not concerned with velocity, but am with fouling. Both seemed to foul pretty badly with how I load (I know part of the problem is my patch/ball combo).  I'm about to try some Swiss FFF next....will report on fouling impressions.

When you do what you are going to do keep in mind that you should include the air temperature at the time you do the shooting.  That air temperature plays a in part in how much of the fouling is retained in the bore versus how much is included in the spent gases being blown out of the bore once the projectile clears the muzzle.   When I did my work on bore fouling and ran into the thing where 3 different brands of BP produced the same amount of bore fouling at a given powder charge temperature I was shocked.  When that was finished I wrote it up as a lengthy letter to Mick Fahringer who was then president of GOEX at Minden he was also shocked at what I had found and thanked me for my efforts.  It explained a lot to him regarding the history of customer complaints he had listened to because none of the customers complaints had made any sense to him knowing what was going into the powders.  How could some customers praise specific lots of powder while other shooters would bitch up a storm over their results with the same lot of powder.

[Mike from OK]

A lower velocity is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I care not one whit if a powder shoots 200 fps slower as long as it does so consistently. I can adjust for lower velocity if it is consistent.

Mike

[Daryl]

That about sums it up, Mike.  As far as fouling goes, neither Taylor nor I see any difference in fouling, whether using 1F, 2F, or 3F, from humidity from single digits to 90%, -20F when we
shot in that cold weather to 100F in the single digit summer temps at Rendezvous.

Maybe our ball and patch combinations are different enough to allow this? Lube runs from spit, to WWWF+ a tich of oil, to WSOil + water 10:1, to Mink Oil, to Neetsfoot oil, to LehighValley
Lube or Mr. Flintlock's lube.

These differences really made very little difference in point of impact nor any difference in the ease of loading.

[Mike from OK]

Daryl, my obsession with consistency comes from my other hobby... Long range unmentionables. 20 fps doesn't make much difference at flintlock ranges... But at 1000+ yards it turns into vertical stringing and can mean the difference between a hit and a miss.

I'll gladly sacrifice 100 fps in velocity if the lower velocity numbers are more consistent.

Seems there's a fellow around these parts who claims consistency is king. 

Mike

[Daryl]

Oh yes - consistency, in the load, in the hold, and in the powder.
In the late 70's, my .58 S. Hawken with the new 2F GOEX powder, 160gr., .022" denim patch .575" RB of 285gr. weight, spit for lube,
1810fps av. and 8 fps variation in 10 shots.
140gr. of the same powder and combination, also with spit lube, producing 1,683fps av. gave 10fps variation in 10 shots.  That load ran
1 1/2" at 100yards off the bags.
I also have a note, 95gr. 2F GOEX same ball and combination, produced 1,424fps and 42fps variation.
The other notes, I have, is that bear grease produced much much larger shot to shot variations, up to 7 times higher.
All shooting without wiping at any time.