Author Topic: Working on JP Becks Bold Style  (Read 2542 times)

Offline Jdbeck

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Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« on: January 14, 2022, 05:31:54 AM »
I been trying my best to capture the bold smooth scroll work of JP Beck. Working on depth, thickness, and roundness. Hopefully I get to see and handle more originals soon.

Let me know your critiques, made a few errors on the incised artwork that isn’t rounded enough.
Some of the leafs appear off as well. Under the cheek piece is rough, it’s hard to get in there with hand tools…


Offline Reegee/Flint

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2022, 07:58:37 AM »
 :)I think you are doing an outstanding job.  Carving jumps out at you and really enhances your stock, as to errors...what errors? I would be glad to have that carving on any of my rifles.

Offline LilysDad

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2022, 04:54:47 PM »
Remember, a few errors are a sign of handcrafting.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2022, 05:18:27 PM »
I am not a rifle carver, I need to state that right off but do have an artists eye as I was once a serious duck decoy carver and did all the finest bill and feather detail and painted a few flat duck paintings (one was actually very good) to practice my painting detail work and brush strokes.

I don't carve my rifles because I still have the eye but my old arthritic hands don't take commands well anymore. I have pealed a few hundred too many osage bow staves with a drawknife over the last 25 years,  that did my hands in. To put that in context, I have spent up to 8 hours chasing a grain on a difficult osage stave.

My opinion is just an opinion but what I see is too bold (thick) and lacks flow.

Original Beck;



image upload
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 05:34:30 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2022, 05:22:18 PM »
What tools are you using?
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline t.caster

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2022, 06:46:30 PM »
I would also like to see what tools you are using. Your drawing has to be smooth and free flowing to begin with. This is hard to explain, but you have to be able to move with the design as you are making the cuts. This may sound silly to some, but I usually go through some rythmic Tai Chi motions prior to carving and engraving! Haha, say what you will, but whatever works for YOU!


« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 06:51:14 PM by t.caster »
Tom C.

Offline Jdbeck

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2022, 06:53:02 PM »
1mm v, 2 mm v, 3mm v, and some round chisels. Flow and the smoothness seems to be the hart part. Here is the drawing I did. 


I know I need to spend more time in the planning stage. I just get impatient and want to put chisel to wood. 🤣. I am trying to learn to go slow. But it’s a challenge.

Tom that’s some beautiful cut curves, looks flawless!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 06:56:59 PM by Jdbeck »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2022, 08:54:23 PM »
1mm v, 2 mm v, 3mm v, and some round chisels. Flow and the smoothness seems to be the hart part. Here is the drawing I did. 


I know I need to spend more time in the planning stage. I just get impatient and want to put chisel to wood. 🤣. I am trying to learn to go slow. But it’s a challenge.

Tom that’s some beautiful cut curves, looks flawless!
This drawing wasn't ready for prime time. Too many kinks. I use both  a parting tool and stab in with the correct radius gouges, but only after the pattern is correctly drawn on the stock.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Hatchet-Jack

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 12:33:37 AM »
JD, I am just a student of gun building and I am just getting into carving. However I am an Artist that has studied how the Old Masters worked. When I was younger I studied the methods of the Italian Masters under a Master Painter who stressed the importance of the "Golden Mean" and how the Italian Masters used it to layout their Paintings to reflect the pleasing shapes in nature. We all know the early gun builders used the Golden Mean for Rococo and Baroque designs but I'm not sure if we understand it beyond using it as a template for C Scrolls. I was just playing around with the Beck Photo Eric Krewson posted. Look at how Beck might have used the Golden Mean to layout his design. Not only just for determining the curve of the C Scroll but where to place the other scrolls and scroll ends. The Golden Mean lines and the 3 to 5 ratio is fascinating to me. Look at nature you'll see it everywhere. Oddly years later I became what's called a Scrum Master in IT. The standard discipline is to use the Fibonacci sequence (Golden Mean) to size the complexity of the work they will do!



Offline Jdbeck

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2022, 03:13:36 AM »
Jack I appreciate the information, I use the Golden mean in shaping the stock. I am very familiar with it, I was just taking to T Caster about purchasing a Golden mean spiral template
. Trying to hand draw that spiral is not in my ability.

But your absolutely right. I think if I use the spiral template I can smooth my curves and get a natural flow in the art. Trying to freehand it while looks ok isn’t meeting the beauty of the old masters!


This is how mine compares. I think seeing how in your post the flowers meet the original curve shows a side of the art. Honestly I think hand drawing it—with out templating the curve is what’s killing me.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 03:40:24 AM by Jdbeck »

Offline t.caster

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2022, 06:07:23 PM »
JDB, The golden mean is not flexible enough for our carvings, and I don't use a template.
I was asking about your carving tools to see if they are long handled and long shafted like I see on a lot of workbench photos here, or are they short hand & palm tools that are easier to control. Not to see if you spent a fortune on them.
Tom C.

Offline Dave B

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2022, 09:40:28 PM »
One of the things that makes this chanlenging is the illusion of depth that our photos seem to show. You need to hold an original to see that the incise cuts along with the grounding of the inside portions and molding of the features give the impression that they stand proud of the stock when in reality they are only no more than a 1/16" - 3/32" at its tallest point.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Hatchet-Jack

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2022, 05:26:13 PM »
JDB I wasn't implying that you should use a template, just that the Golden Mean is just another "tool" that can help you in your sketching.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 10:23:24 PM by Hatchet-Jack »

Offline Jdbeck

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2022, 06:28:33 PM »
Understood.

AndT Caster I have the long handled ones… maybe I should try some of the palm ones.

Offline Jim Spray

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2022, 06:50:32 PM »
I don't know Tom Caster but the man makes his carving flow as good as I have seen. I would look at his post and find out what tools he uses. Lots of great carvers on here just look around and study their work.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2022, 09:49:21 PM »
JD Beck:  what I see when I study your drawing and then your carving is that you have drawn and cut what you 'interpret' from JP Beck's work, not what you are seeing.  In order to capture the essence of original carving, you must abandon your own ideas and concepts and recreate what is actually there. 
The lines of original work are smooth without flat spots or kinks.  And elements that create those tendrils and bulbs are almost parallel to each other, diverging just enough to create an organic feeling in the work.  In your drawing, the lines opposite one another seem to have no relationship to the ones opposite.  I am having difficulty describing what I mean, and would find it easier if we were sitting at a table together examining your drawing and carving.  But going back to my first statement, try to as best you can, draw what you see rather than what you think is OK.  And relief carving on originals is often much lower than what it appears.  1/16" would be mountainously high carving.  Relief carving that appears to be high is an illusion created by stabbing in the edges, accentuating the elements.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline c deperro

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2022, 12:58:14 AM »
 JD. Getting the art work right weather its engraving or carving is essential . IF the NMLRA gun builders class at western KY offers a drawing class it is well worth taking. In the mean time get yourself a sketch pad a pencil and an ERASER. Open up Shumways  books RCA Vol 1,2 or Kindigs Thoughts On The KY Rifle . Pick out a beck gun and draw the carving. Don't edit that drawing. Draw it again . Study the picture and erase and edit it as needed. Ask someone to look at it . They may see something your missing. Spend an hour or more a day drawing and editing for a couple weeks . [Westerns class is basically 24 Hrs.]  At the end of 2 weeks you should see improvements in your drawings. As far as carving ... If your using a v gouge to out line your carving a a   long chisel [like Swiss made] that you tap with a mallet is much easier to control than a small hand held one.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2022, 08:39:01 AM »
Just a suggestion from a beginning carver.  The master carver who taught me made a statement that would have helped with this original poster's carving.  "Parallel lines are boring."  When the comments are made about flow often they are reacting to parallel lines.  Your carving has a major element with parallel sides that are also straight when they should be part of a continuing spiral.  Carving elements in Rococo art are derived from natural organic things such as ferns and acanthus leaves.  Straight lines and stems with parallel sides just aren't organic.  Perfect circles are seldom organic but spirals are and they flow.   I look at each element of my own drawings to be sure they are organic.  Beck was a master with organic form.   

Offline utseabee

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Re: Working on JP Becks Bold Style
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2022, 04:04:46 AM »
   If you get the KRF CD on Lebanon rifles, you'll be able to see a few different examples of  Beck's work in color. You can also zoom in on the different areas you want to look at. I am not a carver and I wish I had the ability to recreate what I see, but I don't have that skill.  I can't offer any carving advice, but CD could be a good resource for you.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 04:08:42 AM by utseabee »
The difficult we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer.