Author Topic: Curly white oak finish help  (Read 5704 times)

Gravedigger

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2022, 03:38:54 PM »
You might want to look at https://woodandshp.com
Look for How to Darken Oak Furniture with Ammonia Fuming.

This is ow the old furniture factories darkened oak wood furniture before applying the finish.  Seen in adds as "Golden Oak".  Also worked on other light colored woods and is great on cherry wood to give an aged wood look.  The ammonia reacts with the tannic acid in the wood.  The stain color lasts a very long time. most of the old Sears Golden Oak furniture still has the stain color.  Has not faded nor turned darker.


Definitely going to give fuming test a try. Watched a few videos which show results I like.

Excellent suggestion. Thank you


Offline STJ1954

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2022, 07:18:52 PM »
White oak is dense and not porous as red oak. Was used for fence post and ships. Also like the last post, white oak reacts to ammonia fumes. I make kitchen spoons out of white oak and expose it to ammonia fumes overnight. Great color. Try on scrape piece and see if you like the color.

Stonehouse john

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2022, 07:45:36 PM »
I'm +1 on either the aliline dye or ammonia fuming (or better, both), and also on the fact that it's gonna be a fair bit heavier than your average stock. 

White oak weighs about on-par with hickory, 20% heavier than the heaviest species of ash (which is green ash).  In my experience, the individual white-oak trees, or sections of a tree, that produce the nicest figure (and some of it is spectacular) also yield stock that is even denser and heavier than the average white oak.

As mentioned, red and white oak are very different, so different that working with them and the qualities of finished products made from them make them seem like completely unrelated species.  Red oak's structure is like a fist full of drinking straws, in fact you can put one end of a short pice of it in a glass of water and blow bubbles through it.  This is why it rots so fast.  End-grain wicks up water until it's saturated from end to end.  It also does that with wood stain, which makes it very hard to finish evenly.  In white oak's structure, the drinking straws are all walled-off into separate short cells (more like a bundle of microscopic bamboo stalks).  It resists rotting because water can never penetrate the end grain past the first cell wall. 

So, what effect does all this have on your project... 

First, make sure the material is good and dry before working it.  The same structure that keeps it from getting wet inside keeps it from getting dry inside.  Probably not an issue if it's kiln dried but if its air dried, it takes MUCH longer to get a white oak plank truly dry inside than most other species we work with. 

Also, the surface of well-smoothed white oak is so dense and hard that it doesn't take normal finishes well at all.  Someone mentioned that it's very open grained.  Think of the stock's surface as being planed-down from a bundle of those tiny bamboo stalks.  Every cut cell leaves a little "pore" in the surface.  The problem with staining is that if you don't fill those pores, and you use standard wood stains (pigment stains), the dense surface won't absorb much finish but the stain pigment will lay in those pores and look blotchy and terrible.  Since fuming is not an applied finish but rather a chemical reaction with the wood's structure, it leaves a perfectly even (though sometimes a bit dull and not very adjustable) finish without having to fill the pores.  And oiling or shellacking after fuming can greatly richen the look (think Stickley furniture).   

Aniline dyes (alcohol based) solve the problem also because, unlike oil/pigment stains, the alcohol is readily absorbed into the surface and it carries the dye-color in with it. 

Never use any acid/iron finish on white oak unless, as others have said, you want it black, really black.  Even then, it's not usually a nice, even black, it kinda looks like the surface was stained with ink.

Be aware also that oaks have a naturally-high acid/tannin content which is why they were used in bark leather-tanning. ANY source of iron oxide which contacts the oak will create that acid/iron finish effect whether you want it or not.  So if your barrel, lock or any other iron parts in contact with the oak ever get a bit of rust, it may create that black stain on whatever part of the wood it is touching.  Again, this is a structural, chemical reaction, not a stain on the surface.  It's not something that will wipe or sand off.  Something to know going in to this project.   

As others have said, sample/test pieces are the very best way to get to a finish you will like and expect.  If you can't get enough actual test-scraps from your own blank, just get some white oak from anywhere, it will be very close to the same.  If it were my project I'd fume as large a test piece as I could get.  After fuming, I'd divide it into squares with masking tape. Just oil one test-square, shellack one, and then try tweaking the tone of the rest with various aniline dyes. Don't buy big cans, just mix your own with SLX alcohol and a few colors of concentrated dye.  They're infinitely intermixable.  I like TransTint but there's a lot of good choices out there.  You'll be able to dial-in a color you'll be really happy with.  If you don't like any of the test-panes, just plane off the test surface and start again.

Lastly, be sure to complete ALL steps of your stock's final finish on all test squares.  With oak/fume/dyes the top-coats may change the final lookof the finish quite a bit.  Do all the steps and you'll know for sure.

Keep us posted.  I'm eager to see how it progresses!

-Stonehouse John
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 05:39:20 AM by Stonehouse john »

Gravedigger

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2022, 03:38:17 AM »
Thank you Stonehouse John for your insight

Got confirmation it is shipping today!!!😀😀😀



Offline DavidC

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2022, 02:58:35 PM »
 I look forward to seeing your finished rifle. Has no one done a gun in white oak to show a picture of?

I'm curious how the grain will be for any carving you might do, I know red oak, at least the big box store stuff, is terrible for it.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2022, 07:13:07 PM »
I'm +1 on either the aliline dye or ammonia fuming (or better, both), and also on the fact that it's gonna be a fair bit heavier than your average stock. 

White oak weighs about on-par with hickory, 20% heavier than the heaviest species of ash (which is green ash).  In my experience, the individual white-oak trees, or sections of a tree, that produce the nicest figure (and some of it is spectacular) also yield stock that is even denser and heavier than the average white oak.

As mentioned, red and white oak are very different, so different that working with them and the qualities of finished products made from them make them seem like completely unrelated species...

Thank you John for your wealth of info shared. I only learned how different white oak was about a decade ago. I knew it was very useful for outdoors projects where treated wood would be inappropriate, but rot resistance is desired, but was not up on making the most of white oak figure, the medullary rays of white oak can be spectacular all by themselves.
Hold to the Wind

Stonehouse john

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2022, 09:37:36 PM »
White oak takes and holds carved details beautifully.  Surprisingly well really for how open grained it is and also for what a coarse material most people consider it to be.  It will test your tool-sharpening skills!  Once carved though it's hard/dense enough to retain fine contours and details for centuries.

Riven oak furniture was THE thing to have in 17th century New England and there was a phenomenon I've heard referred to as "horror vacui" (fear of un-decorated spaces!) which some folks use to describe the fact that almost every surface on many of these oak pieces, both exterior and sometimes interior as well, was completely covered with fine, detailed carving work.  If you want some inspiration and/or how-to advice, do a quick search for the work of Peter Follansby who is a modern day master of this carved oak style of historic furniture and has a blog mostly devoted to teaching others this work.

For more inspiration, here's an image of a carved white oak lion from c.1610.  The carving's not too shabby for 400ish years old!.   (not mine, sadly, it's in a gallery somewhere)


-John
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 10:59:15 PM by Stonehouse john »

Gravedigger

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2022, 12:42:08 AM »
Kibler SMR kit arrived today ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

for some issue can't upload photos

Gravedigger

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2022, 12:44:59 AM »
Kibler SMR kit arrived today ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

for some issue can't upload photos
Did it from computer instead of phone

Just wipe wet paper towel on the white oak to get better pictures


















« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 12:49:19 AM by Gravedigger »

Offline warren5421

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2022, 08:10:30 PM »
I have not done a gun stock but have done a lot of white oak furniture.  The best way is ammonia fuming, do not do it inside!!!  Get a bottel of ammonia used to develop blue prints.  Build a frame covered with plastic wrap, hang the stock up, place a glass bowl in the fuming booth with the ammonia in it.  Seal the booth up so fresh air isn't getting in.  Check every day refilling the ammonia, till it is as dark as you want or no longer turning.  It will get a nice color of brown with the rays showing as gold.  Finish with real tung oil or any finish you want. 

Offline RMann

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2022, 05:19:04 PM »
Thanks for sharing the pics, and I look forward to seeing your results. Beautiful wood, and being different really perks my interest.  Sure, we all love figured maple and walnut, but fun to see some other wood from God's good hand that also shines with unique attributes. I  am also curious to hear how the weight of your white oak stock compares to sugar maple. I suspect not as much as most assume...   R Mann

Offline Sandy

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2022, 05:26:21 PM »
Here’s a picture of a natural edge oak bowl (not white oak) I did with Jim’s ferric nitrate.




Offline godutch

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2022, 08:27:52 PM »




  More white oak characteristics re: steam bending (marine use).

Offline godutch

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2022, 08:47:16 PM »
  Apologies to our moderator. The thread had expanded a bit re: properties/characteristics of w/oak so I took the liberty of including this one.  Delete is you deem appropriate.  Thanks, Fred

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2022, 02:15:35 AM »
I spoke to two owners, maybe three, of white oak stocked LR's at the Lake Cumberland show this weekend. The one I remember best is also the one that is black as coal, Jet black and while you could see the grain, the figure was as obscured as if painted.

Gravedigger have you fumed that wood yet?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 02:34:27 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Gravedigger

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Re: Curly white oak finish help
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2022, 03:55:50 PM »
Gravedigger have you fumed that wood yet?

I ordered 25% ammonia , should be here this week.

What temperature does it need to fume?

Concerned with fumes so I want to do it in a unheated shed.

Will be trying it on some white oak leftover flooring for testing.