Author Topic: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?  (Read 912 times)

Offline Frozen Run

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Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« on: January 21, 2022, 08:02:43 AM »
I purchased a 36" colerain 20 gauge barrel, turkey choked, 1" across the flats. I plan on sending it to Bob Hoyt to have it turned octagon to round with a wedding band and use it to make an English half stock percussion gun. Something very plain but classy. I was thinking about pairing it with this Bob Roller lock. I am not sure if any of that is appropriate or even what sort of Roller lock this is. I think all of the really good English books are out of print so I'm not really sure where to begin researching this. Are my barrel and lock pairing a good start and if so what guns should I begin studying? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.





   

Offline hen

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2022, 03:33:43 PM »
36" is slightly over-length for an English style halfstock percussion smoothbore; I would go for a flintlock version, using a lock with a fully rainproof pan.

Best regards, Hen.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2022, 03:58:20 PM »
Hi,
The first step is to learn about what you are getting into.  These links bring you to Lewis Drake's (www.drake.net) and Geoffrey Walker's websites (www.flintlockcollection.net) which show many fine British sporting guns, flintlock and percussion.  During the percussion period a 36" barrel may be a little long but my late flintlock half stock British fowlers all have barrels greater than 37".   The lock you show would normally be mated with a steel "drip bar" soldered to the barrel to replace all the wood above the lock forward of the nipple.  The gun should almost certainly have a chambered hook (standing) breech and tang with a forged snail for the nipple.  It would not have a drum and nipple.  The barrel would most likely be octagon to round (but not always) in he Spanish form meaning 2/5s octagon and 3/5s round with a wedding ban transition.  That is not always the case but perhaps most frequent.  Some will just be tapered round, some had octagon and then a short 16 sided section and then round, some transitioned from octagon to round gradually without any wedding band. There should be a metal rib under the round portion of the barrel with ramrod pipes soldered on. Most likely there would be steel hardware and checkering around the wrist.  Look at the websites I suggested and you will see many of those details.

dave
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2022, 04:59:18 PM »
Bob's lock is of the Alex Henry style for use with an 1-1/8" barrel.  The Davis drip bar will combine with it, but won't work with a 1" barrel.  The L&R drip bar will work with a 1" barrel, but not with Bob's lock.
The reason is available breech plugs.  There is a section cast into the breech plug that denotes the location of the upper part of the lock panel for proper architecture.  Using an Alex Henry style lock will place that line too high up on the stock.  English components work together as a set, ie the breech, tang, lock, trigger plate and trigger guard all locate each other.  There is a screw that goes thru the trigger plate into the standing breech.  There is a screw that goes thru the tang into a boss on the trigger plate.  These properly locate the trigger to work with the lock.  I haven't found any combination of random parts that will work together.

The top rifle has a 1" barrel and uses components from Pecatonica's Rigby rifle, but uses an L&R lock and their drip bar.
The bottom rifle has a 1-1/8" barrel and uses Don Brown components with a Roller lock and Davis drip bar.

Building one of these is a complex build with the proper matching of components being critical unless you are a whiz-bang machinist and can make some of them.




Dave Kanger

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Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2022, 05:34:39 PM »
Thank you everyone for your responses, this has been a tremendous amount of help.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2022, 11:12:59 PM »
Barrel length is a personal preference.The lock IS intended to be used with the Don Brown/Rod England breech which IS for a 1 and 1/8"
barrel and has a 3/4x16 thread. I think I made about 40 of these 4 screw locks and about 8 of an identical but smaller version.
This lock pictured was probably in the first 15 made because it had the 3./32" pin for the sear to turn on.Probably made in the early 1990's
and the first one was made in 1987 using an original Stanton lock from an Alex Henry owned by Lynton McKenzie as a master.
The last one was made in 2009 for a man in Eastern Canada.
Bob Roller 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 04:32:04 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline snapper

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2022, 11:47:24 PM »
TOF

Your first picture is hard to see.   The second picture of the rifle is a dandy.  ;)
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2022, 11:49:41 PM »
Those are 2 different rifles.
Bob Roller

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2022, 01:48:11 AM »
Quote
Barrel length is a personal preference.
Barrel length for a LR rifle is 36" between the front and rear sight.  This allows minute of angle adjustments for the sights.
For a smoothbore, the length is not that critical.

Quote
Your first picture is hard to see.
Perhaps this will show the relationship better.  At the back of the the standing breech and just above the lock, you can see a cast line that delineates the top of the lock panel.  This is a 1" set-up.  If an Alex Henry lock were used, the plate would be above this line resulting in a lock panel that has no definition and would encroach higher on the wrist.


Dave Kanger

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Offline snapper

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2022, 05:05:45 AM »
Bob

The comment was a little tongue in check.   The second rifle shown is the first one of three rifles that TOF built for me.  Engraving by Ken Hurst.   It is still in my possession.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2022, 05:48:05 AM »
Thank you again everyone for all of your help.

I'm putting the barrel on the back burner for a different project since it is not compatible with this particular lock.

So to utilize the Roller lock I own, I will need to get a 1 1/8 straight barrel with a Rod England breech 3/4x16 thread and a Davis drip bar?

Are there any good books on the English gun that are still in print?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2022, 04:13:59 PM »
Thank you again everyone for all of your help.

I'm putting the barrel on the back burner for a different project since it is not compatible with this particular lock.

So to utilize the Roller lock I own, I will need to get a 1 1/8 straight barrel with a Rod England breech 3/4x16 thread and a Davis drip bar?

Are there any good books on the English gun that are still in print?

Only the breech needs to be 1 and 1/8" The barrels that Don Brown had made were as shown in Snapper's picture,only a short section and
the rest is a taper to the muzzle.
   Does that particular lock have a date inside the name or is it marked USA. After 1989 ALL locks and triggers from my shop said USA inside the semi circular name.I made my first 4 screw lock in the Fall of 1987 before the Friendship Fall Shoot and it was immediately bought by
R.E.Davis for $250.I told him it was my only sample and wanted to show it around and he said."Show ir all you want but I want it after you're done wirh it."The entire number of these locks I made was from 1987 until 2009.For whatever reason,whenever I offered them to Don Brown he rejected them and when Europeans started insisting on these locks with new guns or kits he was upset with me.The last 3 I made for his shop were actually for his widow and they went to Sweden with 3 kits.This type of rifle represents the ultimate in caplock sporting and
target rifles and I'd like to see more of them being made and used.
Bob Roller

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2022, 09:27:59 PM »
This lock ( especially the version with the short curved hammer) is the simplest conversion from the steel bar topped lock preferred by English makers, to the bar in wood version preferred by Charles Slotterbeck and his brothers. By grinding the top of the forward extension to a rounder configuration, and eliminating the steel bar above, and instead inletting the front of the lock in the wood all that is left is reshaping the breech plug to Slotterbeck’s style.

Hungry Horse

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2022, 10:38:04 PM »
Does that particular lock have a date inside the name or is it marked USA.

Bob, the lock very legibly reads a semicircular ROLLER that wraps around 89. I can send a picture of that if anyone wants me to. 

Hungry Horse, thank you for the Slotterbeck recommendation, it is something I am going to have to consider since Davis no longer makes drip bars. That or I can try my hands at fabricating one or is the L&R drip bar easily modifiable to be compatible to a 1 1/8 barrel?     

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2022, 02:25:57 AM »
Quote
Davis no longer makes drip bars.

They are castings.  The Log Cabin Shop now owns Davis.  Check with them.  Also, Rod England has them.

Quote
is the L&R drip bar easily modifiable to be compatible to a 1 1/8 barrel?
The L&R is also a casting and is flat on the back and not V shaped to fit around the side oblique.  I suppose fit would depend on the breechplug used.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2022, 05:40:46 AM »
TOF, thank you for letting me know about Rod selling drip bars as well, I think I am going to contact him tomorrow regarding that and the breech Bob recommended. I was talking to the LCS yesterday and they said they aren't making drip bars anymore. How are they held in place though? Again, thank you for the pictures, they have really helped with clarifying things in my mind.

Offline snapper

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Re: Need advice. English half stock percussion or...?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2022, 03:55:21 PM »
The drip bars are soldered in place.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill