Pouch falling apart!

[Scota4570]

I made a couple of pouches about two years ago.  I used "veggie tanned" cowhide from a respected retailer.  I stained it with traditional vinegar and iron dye.  I gave everything a coat of neat's foot oil. 

I was looking at a pouch today.  The leather has no strength.    It feels dry.  The straps are easily torn into pieces with finger pressure. 

I was going to make another pouch.  The unused veggie tan is strong.  I do not want to waste my time and make  another self destructing project. 

Could it be the vinegar stain?  Something else??  I stored it indoors. 

[Bob Gerard]

A Google search came up with this:
Vinegar is safe, and it can be used to clean leather furniture by mixing with equal proportions of water. Despite being a strong cleaning agent, vinegar can dry out the leather material of furniture if used directly. But if vinegar is diluted with equal amounts of water and then used to clean the leather material of the furniture, then it is seen that the vinegar solution can leather very well and even make it soft and brighter.

[Greg Pennell]

Scot, I have a few projects I’ve dyed with vinegaroon, and so far they are holding up well. I have heard of problems with it degrading linen thread rather quickly, though. Also, some folks neutralize the acid with a baking soda solution…I’ve never done that…maybe I’ve just been lucky. I do try to go through all my leather at least once or twice a year and re-oil everything, especially things not sealed and finished with more modern finishes.

Greg

[Scota4570]

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=50775.msg506692#msg506692

Post 14.

I apparently also used black shoe dye. Frustrating..... I was a nice looking pouch.  I saw some references to the vinegar rotting leather.  I won't be using vinegaroon again. 

[okieboy]

 For my leather projects, I use water based aniline dyes. I have them on hand, can mix the color that I want, and they penetrate well. After the dye is dry, I coat with olive oil.

[Hungry Horse]

What kind of vinegar did you use? After all it is an acid, so if you used a very strong white vinegar you might have a problem. But I’ve never heard of anybody having such a problem. Shoes, and leather tack for horses, and oxen, were traditionally dyed with vinegaroon. Alum tanned leather, and leather that has mildewed, fall apart.

Hungry Horse

[Scota4570]

I used white vinegar.

Based on the result I will never use vinegaroon  again.  A lot of work goes into making a pouch.  My hands are old and tired.  All the work was for not. 

[Marcruger]

Scota4570, I hear you.  This is Marc's opinion, and I am not trying to step on anyone's toes. Why use vinegaroon?  Why not black Fiebing's Pro Dye?  I am guessing just so a maker can say, "I used vinegaroon, the old traditional dye."   The cost saving cannot be much considering a bottle of dye is $5.00. 

It seems every so often the same situation comes up.  "My leather and stitching are rotting after a couple of years.  What happened?" Each time a constant is that vinegaroon was used. 

There are the usual helpful questions about "Did you let the solution use up all of the acid in the vinegar?  Did you neutralize it with baking soda the right amount but not too much?"

I want something repeatable, and straightforward.  Knowing all about the vinegar solution and correct neutralizing seems to be an ancient art, but I don't see the answers shared.  I am sure some of you experienced makers use vinegaroon successfully, and more power to you.  As my Australian friend would say, "Good on you!"   :-) 

In this longrifle hobby the ancient stain of nitric acid is used on maple because it gives a look like no other, and doesn't fade.  It is still the best.  The look of vinegaroon however is nothing unique.  Just a black that looks charcoal blue-ish until oiled. 

"Shoes, and leather tack for horses, and oxen, were traditionally dyed with vinegaroon."  A serious question Hungry Horse - Is vinegaroon still used by saddle and harness makers today?  I don't know.  I am honestly asking.  I personally think that the reason many original bags did not survive (compared to guns and horns) is vinegaroon dye. 

Scota4570, I saw your comment about a respected retailer.  If that retailer's name starts with "T", you most likely got overseas leather.  I bought two hides from them that were horrible.  They would not take or hold dye or finish.  Almost like they were tanned in silicone.  I discovered that most of their hides were from South America.  Try Wickett & Craig for leather.  USA tanned in the NE.  Great products.  Not inexpensive, but as you discovered, the time and effort are the biggest part of a project.  Nothing demoralizing like doing great work and then the project is sabotaged. 

No disrespect to anyone intended by my post.  If you can make vinegaroon work and last, you have my admiration. 

God Bless and best wishes,   Marc

[thecapgunkid]

I've found that vinegaroon will last if you use mink oil over neatsfoot.  I actually had a critter named Parson Jim walk up to me and ask for a replacement pair of shoes that he bought from me  20 years earlier and the only thing beyond hope was the sole and heel...the color and seams had actually lasted, much to my shock and  surprise.

You might also try making a product called Dubbn.  It is a mixture of Lanolin and tallow with some pine oil to provide a refreshing scent and overcome the tallow stink.

The only thing I use Neatsfoot for is to spread the dye, putting the dye on while the oil is still wet.   I'll still use Dubbn or mink oil.

I made this guy in 1981 and it is still with me partially because of the finish and treatments.


There are some over-coat products for veg tan that will protect, but Check the labels on the off the shelf products to make sure there is NO SILICON as an ingredient.

Hope this helps.

[Scota4570]

That is very nicely done.  I see it is brown, not black. 

I am sure that some have had success with vinegroon.  I ruined about 30 hours works and materials with it.  That  is two bags and holster, all trash   I am unwilling to risk it again.  I disposed of about a quart of it I made 2 years ago. 

[Hungry Horse]

 I’m sure the problem is either distilled white vinegar is too strong, or the tanning was done poorly. Vinegaroon has been used on leather for centuries.

Feibings leather dye is a poor product. If you must use leather dye, use Lincolns leather dye instead.

Hungry Horse

[thecapgunkid]

From Scota...That is very nicely done.  I see it is brown, not black....

Truth be known I did not dye this but have benefitted from the Dubbn on it all these years.  I use black Vinegaroon mostly on shoes.  If you make up a new batch, try the mink oil or, better yet, a lanolin mix.

Hungry Horse called it.  Almost every piece I've ever seen rot out prematurely had issues with the tanning and currying.   That's probably why you cited the ability to tear it apart with your bare hands.   It is hard to pick up on that with the naked eye sometimes, so I always "read" the leather with a damp sponge before I lay out patterns.  John Bianchi demonstrates this in his thorough  video on Holsters and Gunbelts.

I remember my Master teaching me at the museum village that Curriers were subject to some pretty harsh penalties because their segment of leather working was so important to everybody else.

[Mark Elliott]

I felt that I should weigh in on this topic as I have been using vinegar and iron stain on leather for a number of years now.   I thought it was safe, being a traditional stain.   However,  I have just gotten a second bag back that failed due to leather that had weakened considerably and torn.   The leather had become like cardboard.   The first time this happened, a number of years ago, I was told by a more experienced leather worker that it was because I had neutralized with baking soda.  That may have contributed, but I now believe that the vinegar and iron prematurely ages the leather.  I have other leather that is older and stained with modern oil stain that has not so weakened.   So,  I am repairing the failed bag with parts stained with modern professional oil stain and plan to use that going forward.

I should note that I believe I have made 46 bags stained with vinegar and iron and a few more stained with aqua fortis.   I have only heard back about a problem with two, but they were the same design, a heart shaped southern mountain bag with the strap attached to the gusset.   It is the gusset that fails a the top of the bag.    It could be that other designs do not concentrate as much of a shearing stress and are less likely to fail until more severely deteriorated, or that a lot of my bags simply are not used.   I have made a number for my brother and they sit in his safe.    I suspect a lot of the things I make are never used.     

As a long term test, I  have prepared a sample partially stained with vinegar and iron and part left unstained.   I have dated it and will put it away for a few years and see what happens to it.   If the vinegar and iron stain is to blame,  I should know in two or three years.    Some others might also prepare some test pieces.   It would be good to know for sure if it is safe to use vinegar and iron or not.  A lot of people just assume that it is safe.    I am no longer one of those.

[James Rogers]

This i know.... it was used for harness etc. and other leather implements ans I have never found any reference to using anything like baking soda or ash, etc. to neutralize. I have seen leather that was over neutralized and it was a mess.
I know a lot of holster makers are using it these days as black spirit dye is a pain for runoff.
I have only used old nails and bits along with cider vinegar. The batch I have on hand today has the same nails and bits that I started it with probably 22 years ago (when I moved into my new house) I know many today are using steel wool so it will eat faster.
Mark Elliott,  may I ask what brand or seller of leather you used on the failed bags?

[Mark Elliott]

I have mostly used Tandy Craftsman Oak.   I believe both the bags that failed were made from Tandy leather,  but I also have Tandy Leather that is very old and not stained with vinegar and iron that is just fine.

[Clark Badgett]

I have a 161-year-old piece of military equipment here that was dyed with vinegarroon (most likely) and it's still amazingly in great shape for its age. It was also patented as was often enough done in that era.

[emmagee]

I have mostly used Tandy Craftsman Oak.   I believe both the bags that failed were made from Tandy leather,  but I also have Tandy Leather that is very old and not stained with vinegar and iron that is just fine.

Mark, I have four of your bags. I just inspected them all and none show any sign of failure or even deterioration. They still look as good as they did the day you made them....

Harry

[Mark Elliott]

I have mostly used Tandy Craftsman Oak.   I believe both the bags that failed were made from Tandy leather,  but I also have Tandy Leather that is very old and not stained with vinegar and iron that is just fine.

Mark, I have four of your bags. I just inspected them all and none show any sign of failure or even deterioration. They still look as good as they did the day you made them....

Harry

Harry,

I am very glad to hear that.   I hope that stays the case.   Make sure you oil them at least once a year so they don't dry out. 

Thanks,

Mark
     

[pilot]

This has been a very helpful thread for me.  I'm planning another bag now to go with my new to me Kibler SMR.  My old bag is most likely a Tandy kit I put together probably in the 70s.  It still is in fine shape even though it gets oiled once a decade or so.  I will need to make another powder horn, too. 

On the Wicket-Craig website, it gave a description of their process.  They use polyurethane at the end as a finish.  Is that going to affect the use of dyes?  Any other issues?

[thecapgunkid]

Mark is right...on a veg tanned cowhide cleaning and treating them every year is a good idea.  I have only made a couple of bags out of veg/cow lately and the difference in them once treated with lanolin or mink or even neatsfoot is noticeable.  After reading through this thread it seems to me that the culprit was more a weak piece of leather than the vinegaroon.

I never met a piece of leather that would have preferred to adorn your gun or feet rather than remain on its original animal.  Even after reading the hide it can be tricky to spot a weak area.

[Marcruger]

Wickett and Craig’s veg tanned tooling leather has no finish on it. 

[Scota4570]

IF the problem was due to the leather, why then is my unused leather, from the same hide, stored in the same room, in good condition?  Yet, the items treated with vinegroon are falling apart. 

[thecapgunkid]

you might have just hit a bad spot on the leather, otherwise undetectable.  It happens once in a while.   Check out a bunch of YouTube videos on currying leather.  When you cut the patterns, can you remember whether or not the part that shredded with your bare hands came from near a brand mark, or near the belly?

Back in the day shoemakers were very worried about uppers..."grinning"... when stretched, and a there is documentation showing severe penalties on the Curriers because so many depended on their product coming out right.

You mayt never know why your pouch did that, but if your instincts are to not use Vinegaroon trust them.