Barrel shortage?

[draken]

Looked everywhere but none to be found.  Anyone know what happened to them?   :

[rich pierce]

What are you looking for? One thing that has happened in the last couple years is folks are spending more time in the shop. So, building more guns and using more parts.

[Chocktaw Brave]

Seems to be linked to the incredible increase in gun sales overall. Manufacturers are behind, but also I think they are making more barrels that are immensely popular and sell quick, rather that barrels in a niche market.
The ammunition market is also suffering. When all this started, I did not think it would affect black powder availability. But I have not seen any in my area in almost a year and a half. Way before the Goex plant announcement.

[utseabee]

     I really have not had a problem finding barrels. Give Rice or Buckeye Barrels a call and ask what they have in stock. There are also a few available on Track and Muzzleloader builders supply. If you know what style you are looking for, you can have one of the barrel makers like Bobby Hoyt make you one. It takes a little more searching, but you can find them.

[Scota4570]

Green Mountain used to be a major supplier to ML hobbyists.  We are no longer a priority customer.  That impacts the supply chain.   

[Clark Badgett]

I called Rice to custom order a pistol barrel and had it in about a month. Not bad at all.

[Spalding]

They’re out there. Just received one from MBS. Also have one on order from Charlie Burton and he told me 6-8 months. Rice also said 6 months for one not in stock.

Bob

[smokinbuck]

Draken,
What are you looking for? I have a brand new Green Mountain 15/16X42 straight octagon in .45 available. Asking $225 plus shipping.

Also have a NOS GR Douglas 1X44 in .45 available. Dirty exterior but shiney bore. Asking $250 plus shipping. No breech plugs.

[Kevin Houlihan]

  I just ordered a barrel from Rice.  I was told they were a month or so away from running the profile/caliber that I was looking for.  I got lucky because the barrel I ordered is not a popular profile.  In any case, a couple of months is good service on a specialty item.
Kevin

[Dphariss]

Green Mountain used to be a major supplier to ML hobbyists.  We are no longer a priority customer.  That impacts the supply chain.   

I think they had a gov’t contract for barrels some time back and this stopped all use of non-milspec steels in the shop. Can’t even have a bar of steel in the shop that is not the proper material or the contract is null and void. I don’t think they have really gotten back into ML, more money in the brass suppository stuff. Shame…

[Bob Roller]

Why can't muzzleloader barrels be made from milspec barrel steels? Substandard has been accepted in Muzzleloaders for decades.
Is there a reason to continue this not very good idea?
Bob Roller

[Scota4570]

Green Mountain used to be a major supplier to ML hobbyists.  We are no longer a priority customer.  That impacts the supply chain.   

I think they had a gov’t contract for barrels some time back and this stopped all use of non-milspec steels in the shop. Can’t even have a bar of steel in the shop that is not the proper material or the contract is null and void. I don’t think they have really gotten back into ML, more money in the brass suppository stuff. Shame…

Sounds like ISO standards.  ISO is an international manufacturing oversight organization.  It serves to build monopolies and kill small manufacturers. 

[BrianS]

Green Mountain used to be a major supplier to ML hobbyists.  We are no longer a priority customer.  That impacts the supply chain.   

I think they had a gov’t contract for barrels some time back and this stopped all use of non-milspec steels in the shop. Can’t even have a bar of steel in the shop that is not the proper material or the contract is null and void. I don’t think they have really gotten back into ML, more money in the brass suppository stuff. Shame…

Sounds like ISO standards.  ISO is an international manufacturing oversight organization.  It serves to build monopolies and kill small manufacturers.

It would be their contract with the government that specifies the terms and requirements. ISO standards may be invoked (in whole or tailored), but it is the issuer of the contract that manages their performance and verifies/validates processes and products. ISO does not have any direct role in manufacturing oversight or establishing monopolies or killing small manufacturers.

[BrianS]

Why can't muzzleloader barrels be made from milspec barrel steels? Substandard has been accepted in Muzzleloaders for decades.
Is there a reason to continue this not very good idea?
Bob Roller

Probably no reason at all, except cost of materials might make the product price increase to the point where the market shrinks. MIL-SPEC metal most likely far exceeds the actual requirements of a black powder firearm.

But, honestly, in other commodities I've seen many vendors just bow out of non-government/military product lines simply because the government/military contract pays a lot more, involves higher production volumes, and sucks up resources that might otherwise be used for other customers due the inevitable enhanced QC, QA, and documentation requirements.

[Clark Badgett]

Why can't muzzleloader barrels be made from milspec barrel steels? Substandard has been accepted in Muzzleloaders for decades.
Is there a reason to continue this not very good idea?
Bob Roller

Probably no reason at all, except cost of materials might make the product price increase to the point where the market shrinks. MIL-SPEC metal most likely far exceeds the actual requirements of a black powder firearm.

But, honestly, in other commodities I've seen many vendors just bow out of non-government/military product lines simply because the government/military contract pays a lot more, involves higher production volumes, and sucks up resources with the inevitable enhanced QC, QA, and documentation requirements.

Current Mil-Spec barrel steel for rifles is 4150. The closest I found to being able to price compare them has 4150 steel at almost double +/- the cost of the same sized piece of 12L14. However, 4140 could be used for just a slight increase, in fact very slight.

[Scota4570]

12L14 is easy to machine, 4150  not so much.  Lots of the mass market CF barrels are button barrels.  A hook rifled barrel, is very expensive.  I have no idea how a larger bore button barrel would work with ordinary button rifling equipment in 4140/4150.  And, most ML customers want deeper rifling that is done with buttons.  Swapping alloys is not the only issue. 

[Dphariss]

Green Mountain used to be a major supplier to ML hobbyists.  We are no longer a priority customer.  That impacts the supply chain.   

I think they had a gov’t contract for barrels some time back and this stopped all use of non-milspec steels in the shop. Can’t even have a bar of steel in the shop that is not the proper material or the contract is null and void. I don’t think they have really gotten back into ML, more money in the brass suppository stuff. Shame…

Sounds like ISO standards.  ISO is an international manufacturing oversight organization.  It serves to build monopolies and kill small manufacturers.

Once the barrel is made and shipped how can you tell what it is made of. Military barrels are subject to things that civilian barrels and ML barrels are seldom, never exposed to.’ The gov’t is not going to have barrels made of some substandard steel in service where it may cost lives or lose battles. The current standard if I am properly informed is 41V50. It can be shot until at temperatures civilians would never believe. This steel or a very similar alloy has been the standard for small arms barrels in the US military since the 1930s. But if you make a barrel from something like 12L14 and shoot it untii its incandescent its not going to survive. So the gov’t sends inspectors. I was told by a man who was making military barrels that if they find a bar of substandard steel in the plant the contract is immediately cancelled. Since GM was making ML barrels from 1137 they stopped making ML barrels (I assume) for the duration of the contract.

[Dphariss]

12L14 is easy to machine, 4150  not so much.  Lots of the mass market CF barrels are button barrels.  A hook rifled CF barrel, say Kreiger, is very expensive.  I have no idea how a larger bore button barrel would work with ordinary button rifling equipment in 4140/4150.  And, most ML customers want deeper rifling that is done with buttons.  Swapping alloys is not the only issue.

\
I don’t use button rifled barrels for serious use. A cut rifled barrel in 4140-4150 will run about $500 ready to install. But you cannot rifle .008-.012” deep grooves with a button so RB barrels are cut. The stress that is applied to the bar in button rifling is extreme. In button rifling a 1 1/4” round black with a 40-45 cal button with grooves around .004” its possible to feel the “goose egg” go by if you put your hand on the blank.
I have 2 cut rifled, gain twist 4150 round ball barrels one in a rifle the other in the shop. Both by Jim McLemore. $425 each some years back.

[Ky-Flinter]

Gentlemen,

Please refrain from discussing modern cartridge barrels.  The original topic of this thread was "Barrel Shortage?"  If there is a shortage of ML barrels all of a sudden, it certainly isn't because Green Mountain cut back or quit making ML barrels years ago.

Ron

[Dphariss]

Why can't muzzleloader barrels be made from milspec barrel steels? Substandard has been accepted in Muzzleloaders for decades.
Is there a reason to continue this not very good idea?
Bob Roller

Probably no reason at all, except cost of materials might make the product price increase to the point where the market shrinks. MIL-SPEC metal most likely far exceeds the actual requirements of a black powder firearm.

But, honestly, in other commodities I've seen many vendors just bow out of non-government/military product lines simply because the government/military contract pays a lot more, involves higher production volumes, and sucks up resources with the inevitable enhanced QC, QA, and documentation requirements.

Current Mil-Spec barrel steel for rifles is 4150. The closest I found to being able to price compare them has 4150 steel at almost double +/- the cost of the same sized piece of 12L14. However, 4140 could be used for just a slight increase, in fact very slight.

Couple of reasons they don’t use mil-spec or similar. First, its impossible to nearly impossible to buy small lots of gun barrel or better quality steel. Its only made to order in furnace melt quantities. Because the alloy and the level of impurities must be controlled making it from unsorted scrap is not a good idea. The bars are inspected to make sure they meet the allowable levels of flaws/inclusions. There is no such assurances in mill run steels you might buy from a steel supplier. Thus unless the barrel maker can afford to buy a furnace melt of steel OR can pool orders with others get the steel. Few of the makers of 12L14 barrels are going to order 100000-200000 pounds of steel bars. Shiloh used to get steel in truck load lots. But Wolf had many connections based on decades of running a large machine shop in Long Island, NY.
However, I don’t think that most of the ML barrel makers out there have the capability or perhaps the patience to cut rifle and then lap a barrel from 4140-4150 class steels. Even if they could obtain it in GB quality.  For one thing tool wear is far far greater. And people used to machining even 1137 will say bad words when they switch to chro-moly steels. I have heard the whining.  The stuff is FAR different than cold rolled free machining steels like 12L14. Even hot rolled 1018, which in the proper quality would be OK for round ball barrels. But its not going to cut like leaded screw stock. So there is a supply problem and I believe, based on a phone conversation back in the 90s with a big name ML barrel maker when I have access to 1137 Gb quality steel and wanted two barrels made from the stuff. He got huffy and i figured that hot rolled, GB quality 1137 was something he either did not know how to machine or had never tried. Anyway I got barrels from someone else. AND freemachining steels, embrittled by cold rolling and intentionally loaded with inclusions of lead, phosphorus etc to help lubricate the cut and greatly increase machining speeds and feeds when  making non-critical parts like hardware store grade screwed cranked out on automatic screw machines, as opposed to most hex head bolts, which in grade 5 and better are made of higher carbon steels which have forged heads, rolled, not cut, threads and heat treatment.
So there are reasons what GB quality steels like 4150 are not used for most ML barrels.

[Dphariss]

Gentlemen,

Please refrain from discussing modern cartridge barrels.  The original topic of this thread was "Barrel Shortage?"  If there is a shortage of ML barrels all of a sudden, it certainly isn't because Green Mountain cut back or quit making ML barrels years ago.

Ron

Sometimes its needed for context. Its impossible to completely shut out the modern world. We have people CNC machining parts for MLs. Are we to ban the mention of CNC machining? While we should not divert the site with too much of this a mention in passing for context is not damaging. That there are people cut rifling precision  barrels from actual, approved for gun barrels chro-moly steels is obvious. But I only know of one who does ML barrels. I only mentioned a modern barrel I am familiar with it to point out the difference in COST, a 20”  round barrel at about $500 compared to a swamped octagonal barrel made of low grade free machining steels for 1/2 that or less. AND the modern barrel will be shot out at the fraction of the shots needed to degrade a ML rifle and in just 2-3 years. They are basically a wear part that will likely be replaced even before accuracy degrades. But if ML barrels went for 500+$ ???h

[Ky-Flinter]

Dan,
You can make your point without mentioning specific modern cartridges.  You just did in the post above.  But, as I tried to point out earlier, this post is NOT about barrel steel, it's about a shortage of ML barrels, real or perceived.

If the discussion of barrel steel continues, those replies will be removed and this thread will be locked, or removed all together.

Anyone have anything further to add about a possible current barrel shortage?  Especially any barrel makers?

Ron

[alex e.]

A barrel making friend of mine in Michigan say cost for the materials he uses have gone up 3 times the price it was last year. And he is billed the current price the day its ships. His orders  have taken a beating, let alone keeping an inventory.

[Birddog6]

Looked everywhere but none to be found.  Anyone know what happened to them?   :

Last year I sold allot of barrels, and I repeatedly told people there WILL be a shortage & there will be a BIG price
increase in the cost of a barrel. I was 100% sure it was coming, & it has.  It was not a guess.

Building rifles is a hobby for me. In my regular line of work, I end up with allot of excess of what they call HeavyMelt
scrap, meaning it is not auto tin, it is heavy steel & cast steel. All should know, scrap yards play a BIG roll in our steel
production in the USA, be it for cast steel pipe for sewers or steel beams for buildings, or plate steel to build whatever,
or steel for a lock or a rifle barrel. 

2 years ago I noticed the prices of the scrap going up again. Unfortunately for the barrel makers, this price has went
up & Stayed up.   Right now it is well over double & may go to 3 times what it was 2 yrs ago.  When it gets pretty
high & I have the time, I start hauling that heavy scrap to the scrap yard.  It is going for around $320. a ton right now.
# 2 unburnt heavy copper is $3. a pound.  Clean yellow brass is $2.20 a pound. 

Point being, if it was  $120 a ton for the steel, and it is now $320 a ton for steel, what is the barrel maker
to do ? He has absolutely No Control over the steel price. He HAS to raise his prices because the raw materials of his
business has increased.  There is No Way Possible he can stay at the prices he was at 2 yrs ago & survive financially. 

What I think is happening is the barrel makers are buying just enough steel for barrels ONLY for orders they have &
trying to survive this crazy steel price increase.  If they build inventory on the crazy price of steel right now, they will
go under.  Because the price will drop again to $100 a ton, the barrel steel price will drop to 1/3 of what it was, and
there they are sitting on a bunch of inventory that is now worth 1/3 of what they have invested in it.  They can's sell
it or must sell it for a loss, because Joe Blow over there is selling his barrel for 1/2 of what his price is.

This will all pass eventually, this crazy steel price thing.  But how long ? who knows. Maybe 2-3 mo. 6 mo, a year ? 
And after it passes & the price goes down, it takes a while for things to settle down again, as that surge in steel price
has to be absorbed.

Look at aluminum right now.  You can't give aluminum away. If you pick up aluminum cans, it cost more for the gasoline
you used than the cans will bring.  I used to donate all my scrap aluminum to a local church & they would sell it to the
scrap yard (some call them Recycling place)  & the church uses that $ for kids education.  They quit doing it because the
aluminum prices are so low, cost more than it was worth. But that too will pass & it will go back up & level off.

I think all this will pass & things will get back to a somewhat slightly higher normal price & avail for barrels. But it
will take a while & it is anyone's guess who will survive it.

Unfortunately, for these new guys trying to get into building, it IS a big deal. For them the cost of a set of ML parts
that was $800 to jump to $1200, that IS a big deal to them. 





 

[rich pierce]

I’m not sure what the reasons for perceived shortages are but consider this: in 1970 a barrel maker was supposed to make straight octagon barrels in half a dozen calibers. Now they are making .32, .36,.40,.45, .50, .54, .58, and .62. All in various swamped configurations and lengths. Plus smoothbore barrels, octagon to round in many configurations and lengths. Do the numbers. 40 or 50 different offerings by Rice or Colerain? And if one of them is not in stock we say there’s a shortage.